Building the 308

[464Saloon]

Hey Guys,

As some of you know, I didn't make it back from the Western Regional due to engine failure. Well we finally got the car home and started tearing into the engine in hopes that maybe some minor repairs would save the day, but no such luck. It was more than obvious that the motor had a lot more miles on it than described by the previous owners who were Hudson Club members ( the surprises never stop on this car, but we won't go there now) but the clincher was the broken #2 piston. The crank has already been turned .010 the number 5 piston is completely different than the other 5, two different head bolts were used,5/8 head and 11/16 head, and what appears to be a 262 head gasket with the 262 head on a 308. This I think led to premature engine failure as the metal ring of the gasket was in the combustion chambers and being slammed by the pistons. Not pretty.

Anyway I would like some suggestions and inputs on building a stout engine. I hope to only do this once ( at least on this car).
How far can I bore it,can I offset grind the crank for more cubes, how about bigger valves,bigger cam,balancing,grinding and shotpeening the rods, porting and relieving. It is a 54 block so some relieving has been done. How about that 262 head,keep it or change it? I think Hudsonator and Randy Maas will have some good input on stepping the motor up but I am open to everyones ideas. Not looking for a drag car but since the opportunity is here and it ain't going to be cheap,I might as well step it up. More than 7X but not full race. Car is a Hornet Special 2 dr so pretty light car. No power options and manual trans,so definately a sleeper. So lets have some fun and build a 308.

Thanks,

[Chris Smith]

Well, I would start with sonic testing the cylinder wall thickness and that will tell you how big you can safely go on the bore size. I would spend as much money as I could on a custom set of ultra light weight forged pistons and low tension rings. 7x size valves, good springs and retainers and a five angle valve job should let that 308 rev easy. If you go the offset ground crank,you may find a piston/rod combo from some other engine that will work without having custom pistons made.

[464Saloon]

Thanks Chris. Sounds like a good starting plan. Any suggestions on where to start sourcing some of these parts?

[THEGREENHORNET]

keep the 262 head. and check out cliffordperformance.com they also have cams which is not listed on there site. -john

[464Saloon]

I've looked at their site but have not heard good stories about them. Apparently all went down hill after Jack Clifford passed. I am also an Olds guy and the same thing happened with Joe Mondello. He is semi retired and doing some consulting so I understand. Someone else runs Mondello Performance and is a total shister. All over the Olds site's say not to deal with Mondello. Kind of sad how no one is following in these pioneers of automobiles footsteps.

[Heart_Of_Texas]

Jack Cliffords recommendations for Hudson engine over haul and rebuild remain the same... each copy of his catalog contained his recommendation chart... My website has the following information on the front page....
http://members.aol.com/sanjuana/Incoming/Clifford.pdf

and if you really want to do the right stuff to a Hudson... Bernie Seigfrieds letters provide the meat and potatoes ... again on the front page of my website...http://members.aol.com/sanjuana/Incoming/BernieSPg1.pdf

Finally Sloan's article within the body of the second page of my website provides real world information on what to do when looking to make a Hudson engine perform...

Cheers from HOT

[464Saloon]

Thanks Ken,

I know your site well and keep it in my favorites list on my computer for regular reference. Wasn't sure how up to date everything is. Unfortunately most of these guys are long past and you can't go to them for advice or parts so I am seeing who all is carrying the torch now and what my options are, so I can get er done.

Thanks,

Rob

[Dave53-7C]

How about throwing one of these in your car?

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/boa/345381512.html

[Dave53-7C]

Here's a better picture.

http://abdownload.free.fr/Anaglyphs/24/24377_LR_Fischer_Hudson_Invader_168.jpg

[THEGREENHORNET]

As Far As I Knew All Of Jack Cliffords Stuff Is Still Made From The Original Casts. So Im Sure Its All The Same. Now I Cant Say Anything About The Custom Stuff.

[maasfh]

Just use Dale Coopers pistons--cut some off skirt to lighten if you want. Deck block .010. Use regular rings unless you want to put a quart of oil in every 250 miles. I like the 402 lift-276 dur. cam I sell for great street power. You can use twin-H but bore out venturi and replace with a 36 or 38 mm venturi. You will need to bore out idle jet .007-.008 and main jet .002-003 or et a clifford intake and holley. Use 262 head, headers, electronic ignition and a smile will be on your face when you accelerate. You will experience frequent trips to the gas pumps. Gas is coming down anyway. OR use a .372-254 cam good idle and good low end power and use headers and let everything else stay stock.
Randy Maas

[Chris Smith]

You can use the tried and tested old school stuff thats out there, or you can think outside the box and try some of the modern tweaks that have been so successfull with the Ford 5.0/302 crowd. Call a few of the camshaft builders and see if they can regrind your cam with similar duration and lift as the popular hudson grinds,but incorperate the quick ramp open and close rates of modern grinds. You can have a lot of the moving internal parts treated with space age coatings that reduce friction without modifying the stock parts. You could have the stock intake Extrudehone ported. If its a 54 hornet you could build a ram air box to seal against the hood and your engine will breath cool air through the stock hood opening.

[Mike (WA)]

You should look at Uncommon Engineering's stuff, too- www.uncommonengineering.com.

[464Saloon]

Randy,

I sent you an e-mail with questions and some of my ideas.

Chris, I've got K&N's on my Twin H and I opened up my scoop a little on the inside sheetmetal. Haven't come up with a way to seal it all off though yet.

[`Hudsonator]

Just use Dale Coopers pistons--cut some off skirt to lighten if you want. Deck block .010. Use regular rings unless you want to put a quart of oil in every 250 miles. I like the 402 lift-276 dur. cam I sell for great street power. You can use twin-H but bore out venturi and replace with a 36 or 38 mm venturi. You will need to bore out idle jet .007-.008 and main jet .002-003 or et a clifford intake and holley. Use 262 head, headers, electronic ignition and a smile will be on your face when you accelerate. You will experience frequent trips to the gas pumps. Gas is coming down anyway. OR use a .372-254 cam good idle and good low end power and use headers and let everything else stay stock.
Randy Maas
I'm going to say something about Randy's "Hot Cam". That's probably the best cam out there for the street performance minded Hudson enthusiast.

Great numbers, even in regard to tappet acceleration. The one thing about that cam that works great on the street is its lobe separation angles. I seriously doubt it improves your gas mileage though! It does help preserve cylinder pressures where the old tried and true designs bled you down a bit too much. We don't have alot of cylinder pressure to start with - so we need to keep as much of it as we can.

Which cam is the .374 - 254* cam? Is that the standard 344 cam or the '55 mechanical? I really messed up when I didn't spec out the 344 cam, I hadn't planned on using it - but did at the last minute when my 742 cams came up with problems. I really wish I had the numbers on that most common of Hudson camshafts. It does have great low end torque and doesn't wheeze like I thought it would up higher (around 4500) with better intake and exhaust options.

There are lots of options out there, which is exciting. I'm kinda happy with my penny-wise 308, happier than I thought I would be. It wasn't done cheaply by any means, but I did keep the expenses within reason with the money spent on machining and time in detail. No porting, relieving, or any exotic work whatsoever. I wanted to see what a 308 would be like in very reliable and common form, its not a disappointing engine at all.

A link to that engine and its particulars w/pictures
http://forum.olskoolrodz.com/showthread.php?t=27885&highlight=back+business+Hud

Somewhere in that thread is the cost figures, suppliers, and other options with costs.

Mark

[maasfh]

Hudsonator: The 372-254 is the 55 mechanical cam. Chris, nothing wrong with some of the old tech. I use it all the time. I have enjoyed putting the Fords on the trailer in the past. I think you missed the point that the rebuild this gent wants to do is for the street--not drag--some mods over & above the 7X. I would rather see him spend $300 for Dale's pistons compared to $600 for forged. That extra $300 could go for machine work or a new manifold & holley or trick out the WA-1 carbs. 464Saloon, I did not receive your email.
Randy
hetmaasfh@ntslink.net
drop het

[half baked]

hudsonator, the tech articles are much appreciated, if only i could get into the factory today (public holiday here).
how much compression is too much for these engines? we can buy up to 98 octane at the pump in australia, but i'd most likely want to pay for 95

how do i go about measuring the chamber volume in the block? id like to know how much to take out when i grind new reliefs for the 7x valves and know they are all even when im done.

[Fred Connors]

Randy Maas is spot on with all of his information! I have just completed a 308 built with many of the above listed parts including Dale cooper's pistons and bi-metal valves, with a few 7X tricks learned from Randy - and it is a runner!! Stay away from the exotic and just build a good quality engine that is good on power and will last.
Fred

[51hornetA]

Hey Chris, have you built a 308 using the techniques you talk about above? what kind of results you seeing?

[`Hudsonator]

hudsonator, the tech articles are much appreciated, if only i could get into the factory today (public holiday here).
how much compression is too much for these engines? we can buy up to 98 octane at the pump in australia, but i'd most likely want to pay for 95

how do i go about measuring the chamber volume in the block? id like to know how much to take out when i grind new reliefs for the 7x valves and know they are all even when im done.

How much compression is too much? Good question. I've heard all kinds of comments from folks on compression and most posts here don't like to go beyond a 262 head, which I think is somewhere just shy of 8:1 depending on how much its been cut.

To be perfectly honest, most of the pinging going on is probably head gaskets in various states of failure and/or ignition problems.

I'm running a slightly cut 262 head on a zero decked 308 in the Wasp, which I haven't cc'd to be sure (I was shocked to see the pistons at the top of the block when I swapped head gaskets as it isn't an engine I've rebuilt - but there they were!). I'd guess that engine to be close to 8.5-8.75:1 with its overbore of .060". No pinging or any adverse problems running 89 or 87 octane gas. It has the factory reliefs, no 7x work. It runs good with a really snappy throttle.

The rebuilt 308 is running a '55 aluminum 308 head that has been cut but the chamber roofs finished to uncut head depths, they clear the valves with the cam lift I have by .125". All the chambers matched cc-wise to 92 cc's. The aluminum heads were tighter on compression than the cast iron ones. Oddly enough, the '55 aluminum head cc'd out the same as a 262 initially, which is why I used it.

Both heads have the chambers polished, which helps on detonation and pinging.

On cc-ing the block. I have a 3/8" thick piece of plexiglass with a relief cut in it to clear the valve edges that protrude above the deck plane. The piece of plexiglass should be large enough to cover/seal the entire valve pocket area and the cylinder. The drip hole is cut into the relief at the deepest place to let the air out and completely fill. A dab of light grease on a shop rag wiped around the edges of the piston head and block relief, pushed into the cracks with your finger and a light coating of the same grease around the block will seal it off. Light is the word on grease, or you'll alter your accuracy. The size of the plexiglass relief is not important as long as it clears your valves and you know the cc's of the relief to subtract from your measurement.

If you've got a positive deck piston, just roll your engine up till it seals off on the plexiglass itself and everything is flush. You'll need to know much your piston sticks up to calculate the cc's it displaces in the gasket clearance area. A zero deck piston is good for about 5 cc of compression increase, more if you don't rework your factory valve reliefs as it raises the valve head positions and makes the reliefs shallower. No real definite numbers as the relief cuts and valve head heights are unique to each engine, so its best to measure your own and go from there. Lots of variations on the reliefs, so I'm hesitant to throw out any numbers there. Not only variations between engines, but variations between cylinders in the same engine.

I've yet to tackle 7x type block reliefs. Getting them all the same cc and keeping similiar flow characteristics is going to be tricky and really time consuming.

Mark

[half baked]

thankyou very much. first on the list is cc'ing and smoothing the chambers in the head and matching all of the ports, i'll tackle the valve reliefs after getting the block back from having the bores, deck and valve seats machined. my block is and head are '55 models so i already have a small relief from factory, i think i will just take the sharp edge off the edge of the valve seats to try and keep some good flow but not take too much out and lose compression

[464Saloon]

Got some good stuff going here. Randy I sent you an e-mail via your 21st Century addy but I have now resent it to the one you have provided.

Mark, sent you an e-mail to the one you provided me in the PM you sent me.

I have already sent one to Randy Spring and am waiting a response from you. Walt Mordenti ( Walt's Garage) has also been giving me some of his inputs.

Thanks to all,

Rob

[Chris Smith]

just my opinion here, I do think if 464saloon has a chance to compare a lightend forged piston next to a cast piston he will see the obvious differences. He will also have a foundation to safely upgrade power adders at a later date if he chooses to. I know he is not building a drag racer,but his statement said he only wanted to do it once and his engine did die from a failed piston. There are thousands of 5.0 liter fords on the street that come from the factory with low tension rings and don't suffer from oil usage. Just put a PCV system and or a pan evacuation system plumbed to the header collector and go. In general Id say nobodys Hudson is a daily driver so why worry about daily driver issues. I would go conservative on the cam and compression and work on the small details.

[464Saloon]

Good point Chris and it will be interesting to hear what the big engine builders like Randy,Danny and Mark say. I'm am anxsiously awaiting responses from them.

[Steve E.]

If I were you I'd bore the block only as big as I needed to to clean it up. They're not making any more of these things and good blocks are starting to grt hard to come by, but it's your engine. Just think where you'll be if you have to go thru it again!

[maasfh]

Just checked weights on a set of stock cast pistons .040 and set of forged Ross pistons I have in stock.
Stock=709 grams with stock pin
Forged=721 grams with light weight pin

Obviously lighter custom forged pistons could be made. Nascar style?
Randy

[`Hudsonator]

Just checked weights on a set of stock cast pistons .040 and set of forged Ross pistons I have in stock.
Stock=709 grams with stock pin
Forged=721 grams with light weight pin

Obviously lighter custom forged pistons could be made. Nascar style?
Randy

Dale's pistons are good pieces, and there really isn't a worry unless you intend on living in the 4800-5000 rpm range, if I was going to be in that rpm range alot - I'd have forged pistons that could handle 5500 feet per minute piston speeds. Piston speed at your maximum designed rpm are really what determine your piston material more than any other perameter. Weight-wise, I found out the same as Randy.

I've also discovered there can be as much as 15-20 grams difference in the rod weights alone, so a piston weights are kinda out the window unless you go ultra custom.

On the stock 308 we built last fall, we had to mix n' match Dale's pistons to different rods to get semi-uniform rod/piston weights. I can't remember how much variation there was in Dale's piston weights to make a report. I do know that we still had to drill some holes in the pin pads to make up the difference in rod weights as we couldn't take up the slack with the piston weight differences (Dale's pistons were much more uniform in weight than the rods by FAR!).

I can't explain the rod weight differences. Same forging #s, same everything except weight and a corresponding difference in rod lenghts, up to .020" variance from long to short from a target of 8.125".

Mark

[464Saloon]

Randy,

Have you got any of my e-mails?

Mark,got yours and responded back,also got a response form Danny. So what does everyone think of lightening the rotating assy? I always grind,polish and shotpeen all my rods on motors but this will be my first Hudson. That is the time to get all your rods the same weight.

[`Hudsonator]

Randy,

Have you got any of my e-mails?

Mark,got yours and responded back,also got a response form Danny. So what does everyone think of lightening the rotating assy? I always grind,polish and shotpeen all my rods on motors but this will be my first Hudson. That is the time to get all your rods the same weight.

Randy, Danny, and Rudy Bennett have much more experiance with these rods than I do - I'm equally interested in their input.

My observation is, don't take anymore off the rod than absolutely necessary. I've had these rods in two other engine experts hands and they were pretty adamant on not whacking much off the rods. While the crank is kinda fat, the rods are equally thin. Joe Mondello was so insistant that the rods not be cut on that we decided to balance the stroker crank by journal/bobweight specific means rather than evening up the assembly weights and using the same weight bobs.

I would do no more on the rods than what's required to remove the old forging flashing along the beams, and would do that with a file rather than a grinder to keep localized heat to an absolute minimum.

One more quick note on balancing the six cylinder, 120* rod rod throw separation cranks. Do talk to your machinist and bobweight the crank. Standard balancing of 6 cylinder cranks does not call for bobweights as does other types of engines. The logic is that its self balancing, which may be true, but the weight working on your journals does change things in the dynamic. I've not had the pleasure of pushing the Hudson engine to the limit we have flathead mopars and inline chevys, but this one change has made a huge difference in raising the rpm ceiling of the two 6 bangers we have pushed hard. Rather than breaking cranks, we're destroying harmonic dampers. Its a small little detail, but really helps the long-ish cranks.

What we really need, badly, is an effective harmonic damper option. My stroker crank has been fitted for an ATI damper which I really like - because its tunable, but its for a small block chevy and required the crank snout to machined to fit. I haven't run this damper yet, but it shows promise. All we need is for someone to make/sell an affordable hub to mate this damper up to a stock Hudson crank snout and find an aftermarket pulley that will work.

A link to ATI and its dampers. Some good reading there to understand how important this often overlooked piece is.
http://www.atiperformanceproducts.com/products/dampers/index.htm

Back to work!

Mark

[464Saloon]

Mark,

My knowledge of balancing is pretty limited. That has always been handled by the machine shops I dealt with so I really never got involved. Did it once once on a Chevy project I worked on, but it was long ago and I don't remember a lot of the specifics. Now you mention Joe Mondello. This isn't the same Joe Mondello who was the great Oldsmobile guru is it? If it is I once knew him well back in the 80's when his shop was here in the Los Angeles area. He helped me build a wicked BB Olds for my 73 Cutlass. My first car which I still have. Currently undergoing a body of resto but this certain Hudson I bought keeps pushing it to the back burner. Anyway if it is the same man, how did you get involved with him on a stroker Hudson. As far as I know he is pretty much retired,sold the business to some shister and his name unfortunately has been quite tarnished by it in the Olds forums I hang out on. Please do expand on this balancing so I can be sure to follow through on it here.

[`Hudsonator]

Mark,

My knowledge of balancing is pretty limited. That has always been handled by the machine shops I dealt with so I really never got involved. Did it once once on a Chevy project I worked on, but it was long ago and I don't remember a lot of the specifics. Now you mention Joe Mondello. This isn't the same Joe Mondello who was the great Oldsmobile guru is it? If it is I once knew him well back in the 80's when his shop was here in the Los Angeles area. He helped me build a wicked BB Olds for my 73 Cutlass. My first car which I still have. Currently undergoing a body of resto but this certain Hudson I bought keeps pushing it to the back burner. Anyway if it is the same man, how did you get involved with him on a stroker Hudson. As far as I know he is pretty much retired,sold the business to some shister and his name unfortunately has been quite tarnished by it in the Olds forums I hang out on. Please do expand on this balancing so I can be sure to follow through on it here.

It is in fact the same Joe Mondello

His shop and technical school is in Crossville Tennesse now, about 70 miles east of me.

That is the shop doing the machining on the stroker engine. And, whenever I can get away - he's going to help me on the flow work. I've been completely tied up for about a year now and unable to devote myself to the stroker. Joe has been tied up with tractor engines, he was introduced to tractor pullers when he arrived to Tennesse and has kinda fallen in love with the variety of engines and room for improvements. I completely understand that.

He'll also work with you by the day, at a daily rate, on a project or topic.

Joe is a fine fella - actually put me on the phone with Ed Iskenderian talking about Hudson cam grinds. Joe spec'ed out Randy's camshaft with a digital measuring device and came to the same conclusion I did - excellent. That's how I know the ramp rates of Randy's Hot Cam.

Mark

[`Hudsonator]

I forgot

How I got involved with Joe.

I was looking for technical schools to perhaps learn more about flowbenchs and flowbench work. Joe's technical school popped up on the computer and I noticed he was moving to Crossville.

I stopped by his place one day while going home from work, as my day job included Cumberland County. I was just looking for information, but caught him just moving in and not very involved in his normal activities.

Which, was much to my advantage - because we had time to talk and get acquainted. He noticed the "Hudson Motor Co." patch on my jacket - and there we went. He's a Hudson fan, even though his beloved Olds and the Hudson were arch rivals in the early days.

Before I knew it, he had convinced me to move my project up to his shop.

He's a very personable man to say the least.

Mark

[464Saloon]

Wow what a small world this can be at times. He used to be in Van Nuys CA and that is where I would go and he would coach me through my 455 build. At the time I was probably the only one in the world hot rodding a 73 Cutlass 4 door. He is or was a pretty sharp guy and may just remember me. Just for laughs,next time you see him, asked him if the name Rob MacKey ( prounounced McKay). sounds familiar? What a blast it would be if he did and not only heard I still have that same 73 with his Mondello valvetrain in it,but now I have a Fabulous Hudson Hornet too. Though not so fabulous right now.

[maasfh]

Robert

I tried calling you last night but no answer.

Randy

[464Saloon]

Randy,

Snet you two e-mails to your HET addy,one to your 21st Century addy and one PM. Not sure what number you have. Mark and I have been e-mailing alot so I don't know why we aren't connecting.

Rob

[`Hudsonator]

Randy,

Snet you two e-mails to your HET addy,one to your 21st Century addy and one PM. Not sure what number you have. Mark and I have been e-mailing alot so I don't know why we aren't connecting.

Rob

Well, I do understand e-mail problems. My normal e-mail hasn't downloaded anything in a month and I'm sure its snafu'd.

So, anybody wanting to contact me needs to use my backup e-mail
hudtheman@yahoo.com

Don't know what's up with the normal account?

Mark

[464Saloon]

Well I have tried everything and he seems to be able to reply here so not sure what else to do. Next question is OIL PUMP springs. Who stocks those as mine came out last night in 10 pcs.

[464Saloon]

Well I have tried everything and he seems to be able to respond here. Next question is where do you get new oil pump springs? Mine came out in 10 pcs, believe it or not.

[maasfh]

Randy,

Snet you two e-mails to your HET addy,one to your 21st Century addy and one PM. Not sure what number you have. Mark and I have been e-mailing alot so I don't know why we aren't connecting.

Rob

Rob.

Got your two e-mails. Tried calling twice to the number you give me. I am listed in the Roster with phone number. It is 309-968-6157 or cell at 309-267-6158. The PM on this site I did not get nor the one throught 21st Cent.

[464Saloon]

PM went out yesterday at 1:23 PM. It was just a copy of the e-mail. Got your VM after I returned from lunch. That is my work number, and I prefer e-mails at work since there is not too much privacy and micromanagers running around if you know what I mean. I will call later with the # you left me.

Thanks,

[`Hudsonator]

Time for some pictures. Everybody loves pictures.

Dale Cooper piston assembly. Weight-wise, not but a few grams difference between this cast piston and a custom forged one. I do want to point out something on this design.

http://www.classiccar.com/photopost/data/553/medium/308rodpiston.jpg

Notice it has two oil rings. This isn't for added oil control, its to keep the piston aligned in the bore. Long stroked engines place alot of rocking force on the piston. The added lower oil ring keeps the piston in better alignment with the bore as the rod changes direction. Does nothing to add performance, but does alot to protect your bore from wear and add longevity to your ring/cylinder seal. Very durable setup for the long haul. Hats off to Dale for using this outfit on road travelling engines.

On any engine built for durability and perhaps mild performance that isn't going to see sustained high rpms - this is the piston I'd use, and did use.

Mark

[`Hudsonator]

More pictures, and something I've noticed about Hudson blocks and combustion chambers.

http://www.classiccar.com/photopost/data/553/medium/Hud308123.jpg

I've taken alot of pictures of Hudson 308 topsides, and noticed something that probably explains the additional performance of the 7x relief.

While one would think that adjacent cylinders are mirror images of each other, thats not true of the Hudson wide block super six. They do have mirror image pairs, but they are at opposite ends of the block. 1 mirrors 6, 2 mirrors 5, 3 mirrors 4. So, you have 3 different valve arrangements in relation to the distance and radial position of the intake valve to the cylinder.

If you look at the picture, you can see the difference in the blackened area between the intake valve and the cylinder. The #1 intake valve is closer to its respective cylinder than #2, #3 intake valve is closer than #2 but further away than #1. You can also see pretty clearly how the shrouding of the deck encroaches on the valve periphery differently on the different intake valves.

It becomes obvious that Hudson had a hard time crowding all that valve into the block with the increased bore diameter of the Hornet. They moved things around till they fit. This makes the intake valves flow differently respective to the cylinder via the different intake valve positions.

This is probably why the factory came up with the 7x relief, as the intake gasket openings are uniformly the same, or mirror images all the way depending on which side the intake valve is on per cylinder. Merely relieving the block to match the gasket eliminated the variations in intake valve shrouding.

I at first thought the differences in valve distances from the cylinder was an optical illusion based upon the variable positions of the mill cut of the factory reliefs. It isn't. If you measure them, you get three different distances unique to the pairs I've already listed.

Oddly enough, the exhaust valves are more uniformly positioned and less shrouded by the factory relief than the intakes. Makes me wonder if relieving the exhaust side is really all that effective.

I'd sure like to hear some discussion regarding this, particularly from the more experianced Hudson builders.

Mark.

[Hudson308]

One thing to remember is that even though the 308 has a longer stroke than a 500 Caddy, the connecting rod is also much longer than usual. This means that the rod-to-stroke ratio is among the best ever produced. Smoky Yunick used to preach on the virtues of rod-to-stroke to any one who would listen, because it translates into the percentage of the power stroke that force is applied downward on the piston, rather than sideways. Thus side loads on a 308 piston skirt are not as much as one would think by simply looking at stroke numbers alone. 400SBC side loads, for example, are much higher with the stock length rods than a 308, even though it has a slightly shorter stroke. This is why 383 or 400SBC motors make more power (and last longer) when using the longer 350 rods and custom pistons.

[464Saloon]

Hasn't this been a great thread? Look who all has got involved and all the different ideas thrown out. I had a wonderful talk with Randy Maas last night for about an hour and a half. What a fascinating guy, he does everything and is willing to share his knowledge and ideas. I am really excited about getting this thing done and running. Just hope I can find a machinist that can do some of the tricks he shared with me.

[Hudson308]

So now you know "The Secret of the Seven Degrees"... ;)

[464Saloon]

Now the question is what are all those stars that are after the pages? never seen thoise before.

[rambos_ride]

Now the question is what are all those stars that are after the pages? never seen thoise before.

I'll second this is an excellent thread - makes me want to have a Hudson with a decent flathead in it to play around with!

The stars are rating points for the thread - if you explore the top of the page there is a toolbar rating a thread is a choice you can make.

http://www.49c8.com/images/fp/ratingathread.bmp

[464Saloon]

So who put the stars there? I started the thread but I didn't put the stars there.

[rambos_ride]

So who put the stars there? I started the thread but I didn't put the stars there.

Anyone can rate the thread - each vote tallies then displays an average # of stars if you mouseover the stars it will tell you how many people have rated the thread.

[464Saloon]

Learn something every day. I am so proud of myself with this thread I went and rated myself.;) I did get an e-mail from Dany Spring who is running a 353 stroker and Randy's super street cam. He said he runs low 17's with that combination. Sounds slow as a brick doesn't it? I know the power to weight ratio with that is far better than with my car. It just didn't feel that slow. Makes me feel like after all this work I am not going to have any faster than a car in the 18's or so. :(

[`Hudsonator]

One thing to remember is that even though the 308 has a longer stroke than a 500 Caddy, the connecting rod is also much longer than usual. This means that the rod-to-stroke ratio is among the best ever produced. Smoky Yunick used to preach on the virtues of rod-to-stroke to any one who would listen, because it translates into the percentage of the power stroke that force is applied downward on the piston, rather than sideways. Thus side loads on a 308 piston skirt are not as much as one would think by simply looking at stroke numbers alone. 400SBC side loads, for example, are much higher with the stock length rods than a 308, even though it has a slightly shorter stroke. This is why 383 or 400SBC motors make more power (and last longer) when using the longer 350 rods and custom pistons.

This is all true, and no arguments from me. What causes the Hudson piston to rock is the compression height of the piston and the distance of the ring pack from the wrist pin. This rather long distance in comparison with a 350 chevrolet gives the rod a chance to cock the piston. The shorter the distance from the rings to the wrist pin, the less this force applies.

The Hudson was made to stroke and could stand even a longer rod than its already outstanding rod length. Its one of the few engines I've messed with that you had room to both stroke it heavily, and still be able to have a custom rod and piston made to bring its rod ratio back into optimum range. The stock rod is still fine with a stroker crank, but since we're throwing out possibilities I'd just note some of the outstanding possibilities out there.

I know Uncommon Engineering once offered Carillo rods, I don't know why you'd pay that much money for a custom set of rods and not get them as long as you could for whatever stroke combination you were going to run or may ever run sometime in the future.

I stuck with the 5" stroke crank just because that works out well with the stock rods - still well within Smokey's optimum numbers.

I love Hudsons.

Mark

[super651]

Rob, You have some very good info on the Moving parts of the Hudson engine. So here is some of the block mods.that we do when building the stepdown engine. ( you may know them ) The main oil supply that is cast in block is Tapped with a 3/8 pipe tap front and rear and a 3/8 allen-head plug is installed with sealer. The front plug is drilled to 1/16 in the center before it is installed when using the double-roller chain setup. this feeds a little more lube to the chain. (some chains get very little lube to the center pin of the link assembly) And have not had any oil leaks at the crank seal with this set-up.
The upper and lower cam lifter bores get a slight chamfer (a very small 45 degree) this helps keep more oil on the lifter. That sharp edge wipes the oil away when the cam lobe lifts the lifter to one side as it moves the lifter up in its bore. ( you can see this wear on used lifters at the lower part of it.
The front and rear main caps are cleaned and are oil free when installed,then the D-shaped packing holes are filled with High Temp. Silicone sealer using a small plastic tube slipped over the adaptor so you can insert the tube to the lower part of the holes and pull the tube up as the hole is being filled. This seals the oil on front and rear main caps.
There is a 3/8 hole at the rear of the block at about 2 oclock that goes into the valve spring area and is used as a bell housing bolt. Use some sealer on this bolt or half fill the hole with RTV from the inside. The oil can leak out of this bolt hole then leak down between the rear adaptor plate and will look like the leak is comming from the crank seal or the main cap sides.
Some of the 3/8 and 5/16 bolts on the Chain cover and the motor mount adaptor go into the engine oil splash area and will seep out of the bolt washer so we use sealer on all front bolts in this area.
The oil pan and timing cover gets the Fender Bolts the flat washer is part of the bolt head they will not cut into the metal as do lock washers. ( some of the older auto trans use this type on there oil pans)
Hope this helps as it has us in the past. Rudy

[464Saloon]

Good info Rudy. I need to get the rest of the block diassembled as a couple of your mods here I don't quite follow without having looked at these parts of the engine. The lifter bore modification and the main seal silicone filling I don't quite understand.

[464Saloon]

I was just looking at what Uncommon engineering does with their 308's. Any comments on rod bolts? They are using ARP's? Seems like a smart move over reusing the 53 year old ones. Has anyone done any porting work with the exhaust side? Looks like some teardropping could be done around the guide, but something bothers me as the exhaust has a lot of metal around the guide but not the intake.

[rambos_ride]

Learn something every day. I am so proud of myself with this thread I went and rated myself.;) I did get an e-mail from Dany Spring who is running a 353 stroker and Randy's super street cam. He said he runs low 17's with that combination. Sounds slow as a brick doesn't it? I know the power to weight ratio with that is far better than with my car. It just didn't feel that slow. Makes me feel like after all this work I am not going to have any faster than a car in the 18's or so. :(

Really that's nothing to be sad about, given the age of the technology and the limitation of a flathead engine.

Many things affect 1/4 mile times too, reaction time, transmission to rear end ratios, even tires and whether you hook up at the launch or not.

I ran my 1968 Chevelle for several summers at SIR and at the time it had a 1975 smogger 350, with a 8:5:1 compression, smog heads, cam and 4 brrl intake. TH350 combined with a sawblade rear end with moon gears (2:73) - I was able to degree the cam and play with the timing and jets and got a best time of 14:90 @ 98MPH in the 1/4

It used to be that once you got a car to a certain point it would cost 1000.00 more for every second of gain after that. I'd bet that formula is more like 2000.00 dollars these days :mad:

The nice thing about this forum is some of the cool work people are doing with turbos and superchargers applied to the flathead engines. I'd think that combination might get you a second or 3 faster if you can get it to apply the power band quickly and get out of the hole.

Besides, if you were going to race open class - handicapped style racing, it doesn't matter how fast you can go, its a matter of knowing your car and dialing in a consistent time.

I'll never forget my first "High School Drags" racing the Chevelle. I dialed it in at 15:10 knowing it would do under that and went up against and 11:00 pro-street 1968 Charger. With my lead, all I had to do was push it at the start and then just watch the rear view, as I got to the end of the 1/4 I just tapped my brakes slightly - even though he was coming up on me fast - but it was just enough to not break out and beat the guy.

I remember getting back to the pits and staging for the next run and watching this guy pull back into the parking area (time to go home for him:( )- p.o'd to all get out about losing to me and my "slow" car. PRICELESS!

In fact this picture was taken that very day up at SIR, circa 1980 - gawd I'm getting old!

http://www.49c8.com/images/Certs/68Chev3_med.jpg

[walt's garage-53]

I guess you have not read Walt Mordenti's Hudson traveling stories. I rebuilt my engine in 1998, found a new speedometer, zero miles, and today it reads 104,050 miles. That makes it more than a every day traveler. So far 9 trips across this country, coast to coast and still on the same engine as I rebuilt it. Rob has seen this car and he knows it will fly. I'm telling Rob to build a good stock engine and just clean up the ports, match the manifolds to the block and fly. My engine will cruise 500 miles a day for 6 days to reach Connecticut from San Francisco and at times, top speed 90 plus. Gas mileage, 18 to 22, just check with someone that does the Laughlin run. Who needs all that junk. I have air condition, power rack and pinion and a 2.73 Dana rear and still fly up hills to 14,000 feet. Ask anyone that follows me. Do as I say Rob and you will surprise a lot of people. Walt.

[464Saloon]

I plan to get the rest of the motor apart today so my machinist can at least get the block cleaned up and see what condition it is in. Randy is going to get a parts list together for me hopefully by Monday.

Rudy, I would like a little more detail on your oiling improvements as I am not sure I follow it all.

Walt, I have considered your advice and have steered away from some of my wild ideas I originally proposed, as it is not going to be a race car and most of the driving will be freeway flying to club events and shows. I just figure since I have to go through the motor,I might as well make some improvements and updates to a 53 year old engine while I can.

[springspeeddemon]

Rob, There is a little confusion here. The low 17's to high 16's are in my wife's '40. It has a 1/16 over 308 with Randy's super street cam, a clifford header, and a 4bbl carb.

The stroker in the 41 coupe has run as fast as 14.66 at 94 mph. Randy's car is MUCH quicker than this due to his extensive experimentation and tuning.I hope to someday get my car to run in the 13's, but I'm not there yet.

Dany

[`Hudsonator]

Rob, There is a little confusion here. The low 17's to high 16's are in my wife's '40. It has a 1/16 over 308 with Randy's super street cam, a clifford header, and a 4bbl carb.

The stroker in the 41 coupe has run as fast as 14.66 at 94 mph. Randy's car is MUCH quicker than this due to his extensive experimentation and tuning.I hope to someday get my car to run in the 13's, but I'm not there yet.

Dany

Dany,

I keep waiting for your TVM injection units on a weber intake.

Couple that with a Paxton SN 60 or 90, I think the crown may pass into your hands!

Your wife's car had the 7x intakes / stock exhaust valves - or am I thinking of another engine you have?

Mark

[464Saloon]

Rob, There is a little confusion here. The low 17's to high 16's are in my wife's '40. It has a 1/16 over 308 with Randy's super street cam, a clifford header, and a 4bbl carb.

The stroker in the 41 coupe has run as fast as 14.66 at 94 mph. Randy's car is MUCH quicker than this due to his extensive experimentation and tuning.I hope to someday get my car to run in the 13's, but I'm not there yet.

Dany

Sorry Dany for the confusion. I sent you another e-mail with a couple of questions.

Thanks,

Rob

[springspeeddemon]

Mark, That is correct on the 7X intake and stock exhaust valvas.

Dany

[464Saloon]

Well it wasn't pretty when it came apart. #2 came out in two pieces and #5 appears to be a forged unit. If I get time and once again can remember or find my instructions for posting, I will throw them up. At the machinist now to see if there is any other bad news. Probably will have to sleeve #2 from the scoring.It is amazing with a broken oil pump pressure spring,a 262 head gasket being slammed by the pistons and the one heavier forged piston,that it ran and lasted as long as it did. If I had any idea what was hidden in that block,I would have never attempted driving it all the way to the Western Regional!

[DaveFury]

Does anyone have any pics of 7X modified reliefs on the block, or before and after 7X modification?

[Heart Of Texas]

Dave

I am in the process of updating my website but this is a link from the site to the pictures you need...

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://sc.groups.msn.com/tn/4C/A1/HudsonMotorCarCoMessageBoard/12/bb.jpg&imgrefurl=http://groups.msn.com/HudsonMotorCarCoMessageBoard/original7xmachinework.msnw&h=72&w=96&sz=3&tbnid=raYri4Wwk3aT6M:&tbnh=57

http://sc.groups.msn.com/tn/4C/A1/HudsonMotorCarCoMessageBoard/12/c6.jpg

[DaveFury]

Dave

I am in the process of updating my website but this is a link from the site to the pictures you need...

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://sc.groups.msn.com/tn/4C/A1/HudsonMotorCarCoMessageBoard/12/bb.jpg&imgrefurl=http://groups.msn.com/HudsonMotorCarCoMessageBoard/original7xmachinework.msnw&h=72&w=96&sz=3&tbnid=raYri4Wwk3aT6M:&tbnh=57

http://sc.groups.msn.com/tn/4C/A1/HudsonMotorCarCoMessageBoard/12/c6.jpg


Hi Ken,

Thanks. Hurry up, I can't function without your web site! LOL

[TwinH]

Great reading fellas. The 308 that came in my 49C8 has developed a bit of a
knock thats not gonna go away. Good thing is it also came with a rebuilt 308
(head and pan never installed) with a fresh bore and pistons.I'll have to go clear through it as I bought it from an estate with no info on it. Current engine is
modified with a full flow oil filter,Clifford head and header,Crane ignition,
Hydraulic lifters,and probably a stock cam. Compression test shows 165-175
psi on all the cylinders. This seems pretty high to me but surely must be
a pretty short duration cam. I'm just following this thread for future reference
and kind of wondering what you consider good cranking compression to be.
Thanks, Jeff Lynn

[DaveFury]

How much material can you machine off the head surface before you get into valve clearance issues .040" to .060" safe?

[Ol racer]

A lot depends on your cam Lift and wether head milled previously.... I measured my lift and the exh chamber depths, then added the compressed gasket thickness to learn I could safely mill .080.(Be certain to check all Exh chamber depths, and plan to use shorter reach s/plugs).