Why all of the them against us mentality????

[hudsonkid]

Gentleman, and the few laides that venture on to the board here...

What's the deal? I'm feeling left out, because usually I am the one that causes this kind of animosity on this board, and now it's stealing the thunder...

Here's my take on it and the start of yet another thread...

Why don't we use this thread to offer suggestions for areas of improvement, or even ideas that would generate new interest in the HET club. Why don't we take this time as an opportunity to look for new membership, find ways to get others that are not members of the HET club, to become members, and even look at ideas for ways the club may be able to make membership more appealing to those that don't feel the club may have enough to offer to them.

I know in the past, I have been a intigator of problems, maybe even, but I think this is a wonderful time to try and get everyone together under one big, happy HET umbrella.

Post up fella's, let's keep it civil, and let's try to be working towards a common goal.

[66patrick66]

Gee, Kid, only five separate threads on the same basic topic! this may set a record here!:D

[hudsonkid]

Gee, Kid, only five separate threads on the same basic topic! this may set a record here!:D

I felt left out, i wasn't getting enough attention, needed a thread of my very own...

[66patrick66]

It IS fun, stirring the pot, isn't it!

[hudsonkid]

It IS fun, stirring the pot, isn't it!

no I'm not stirring the pot. I believe this would be a productive thread, if people would take it seriously, and list pertinent issues, ideas, or even observations.

I think i'm done being a pot stirrer, for now. I think my mindset of the HET cl;ub has changed. I'll probably be president of it someday, so I best get involved now.

[jsrail]

I feel demoted! (Geez, did I spell that right?)

Actually, hudsonkid, I think its a good idea. Maybe suggestions here could be discussed at the next board meeting.

I for one suggest the following, that has already been mentioned elsewhere, but with which I am for:

1. The ability to renew memberships on the club website. I would be willing to pay an extra dollar or two if needed to cover credit card processing and such. Others could still send in theirs by check if they like.

2. An online catalog, with photos with the ability to purchase with credit cards, of items for sale with a good description. I would be willing to purchase from there if I could actually see what I am buying. I know credit cards cost money to take, but I think a lot more sales could be had by offering credit card purchasing on the site.

My brain is shrinking, so thats all I could do (plagarizing other's suggestions), but lets start it off. And keep it positive.

Jay

[hudsonkid]

now check this out, several suggestions, offered, without strife or complaint. Good suggestions for positive change. How about some more?

[stateline]

This site and the HET are a major breath of fresh air compared to the way the Mopar hobby has gotten !!!!!!!!

[PAULARGETYPE]

Hudson Kid You Have To Be A Member To Become President!!and Reading Your Posts That Will Not Be Happening Soon

Now With That Said I Try And Help Any One Who's Looking For Help I'm Not A Great On Line Geek

Reading All Thats Been Posted I Feel What I And Others Have Done Just Isn't Good Enough To Get Some Of You Guys To Join Us

Maybe I Should Limit My Help To Hudson Members Only!!
But I Can't Do That !!!

I Hear About On Line Sign Ups And Club Store Not Posting Photos What You Have To Understand Is The People Doing All This Are Not Getting Paid For Doing It There Doing It Because They Love This Club Just Like I Do And Reading About Its Short Commings Hurts Me

Yes We Could Have Online Sign Up And Credit Cars Taken By The Club Store
But We Will Have To Pay For It By Making The Dues Big $$$$$$

I Can Put A Stamp On My Renewel And Send It Snail Mail Or You Can Pay For 5 Years At A Time And Not Have To Renew

[jsrail]

Hudson Kid You Have To Be A Member To Become President!!and Reading Your Posts That Will Not Be Happening Soon

Now With That Said I Try And Help Any One Who's Looking For Help I'm Not A Great On Line Geek

Reading All Thats Been Posted I Feel What I And Others Have Done Just Isn't Good Enough To Get Some Of You Guys To Join Us

Maybe I Should Limit My Help To Hudson Members Only!!
But I Can't Do That !!!

I Hear About On Line Sign Ups And Club Store Not Posting Photos What You Have To Understand Is The People Doing All This Are Not Getting Paid For Doing It There Doing It Because They Love This Club Just Like I Do And Reading About Its Short Commings Hurts Me

Yes We Could Have Online Sign Up And Credit Cars Taken By The Club Store
But We Will Have To Pay For It By Making The Dues Big $$$$$$

I Can Put A Stamp On My Renewel And Send It Snail Mail Or You Can Pay For 5 Years At A Time And Not Have To Renew

Paul, I'm a member but I think the online and store credit cards are a great idea. They could charge us folks the 3 or 5% surcharge for doing this at no expense to anyone else. Credit card surcharges are only charged against credit card deposits, so no effect to members who don't use them and no need for increased fees. There is only a small amount of additional bookkeeping to account for these transactions. I would bet you would see an increase in stores sales, which could more than account for any additional hassle taking credit cards would make.

Maybe we don't need to make any of these changes if membership is growing and growing in the future. But, I'm afraid, if we don't, membership will not grow and instead will dwindle down with each member's passing. Like it or not, younger generations are used to doing things a little different and we need to respond to this if we are going to grow this club in the future and inspire younger generations to join us (at least ones who are not children of current members).

Jay

[hudsonkid]

Hudson Kid You Have To Be A Member To Become President!!and Reading Your Posts That Will Not Be Happening Soon

Now With That Said I Try And Help Any One Who's Looking For Help I'm Not A Great On Line Geek

Reading All Thats Been Posted I Feel What I And Others Have Done Just Isn't Good Enough To Get Some Of You Guys To Join Us

Maybe I Should Limit My Help To Hudson Members Only!!
But I Can't Do That !!!

I Hear About On Line Sign Ups And Club Store Not Posting Photos What You Have To Understand Is The People Doing All This Are Not Getting Paid For Doing It There Doing It Because They Love This Club Just Like I Do And Reading About Its Short Commings Hurts Me

Yes We Could Have Online Sign Up And Credit Cars Taken By The Club Store
But We Will Have To Pay For It By Making The Dues Big $$$$$$

I Can Put A Stamp On My Renewel And Send It Snail Mail Or You Can Pay For 5 Years At A Time And Not Have To Renew

Paul, read my other posts thru out this debacle. I will be a member, as of next monday, or however long it takes to process my "renewal" anyway, I got a few questions to your reply.

1) Why can't I be president of the club, ever? I think that your statement is just as unrealistic as my prediction of being president of the HET< but figured I would ask you why you think that is not achievable.

2) you have been helpful to many members, me included, and I thank you for it. I personally feel there are a lot of folks that have been helpful on this forum, members and non members, but now really is the time to bring them under the sam umbrella.

3) I like sharing my knowledge on hudson or anything else with whoever I can, regardless of what organization they belong to, unless of course it is a hate organization or something else diabolical.

4) As far as the club store photo issue, whenever my membership is recieved, I will wait until someone asks me for my help and put as much effort as i can into helping bring about some of the changes outlined. I will solicit whoever I need to make sure that I try to drive these changes, if they don't happen, it will then not be from my own not wanting to facilitate those changes. and I will do it for free, in my spare time, as well.

5) The cost to introduce E-commerce to the club, for membership renewal, new membership, and even club store purchases, is NILL. it is actually likely cheaper in the long run, you can appeal to a broader audience, and capture additional sales from non club members, perhaps even offer a slight discount for club store purchases, and a new membership, or renewal. (just one idea)

6) Paul, you need to think of the future on this. Most members of theHET have computers, and are online. It is the future, whether we got to drag you kicking and screaming.

My final point is each of us have our own skillset, to offer the club, call it a gift, or whatever. Some of us have a knack to fix broken hudsons, some have parts hoardes, some have bright ideas to advance the club. it is truly time for us to all get together and put these skills to work for the club.

I guess I had an epiphany of sorts... you guys should all be proud of me.

[hudsonkid]

I would like to see the HET president, and the rest of the gang active on this forum. I would also like to see the directors (those that are not active) on the board, and active. That's one of my suggestions.

[66patrick66]

That's one BIG problem, IMO, is that the national "leadership" barely acknowledges that this forum even exists! Look at all of the FREE publicity that HET gets (at least, free to HET) here! Do they recognize this? Somehow, I doubt it.

Paul, your suggestion to help only HET members reeks of exclusiveness, especially since HET pays zip for this forum. It IS an open forum.

Kid is absolutely correct in that getting HET into the 21st Century and e-commerce costs nothing. There are several people here that have offered their expertise for free (or nearly so) to do exactly that. Where is the official HET response to these more-than-generous offers of assistance?

What I said earlier about "stirring the pot" is exactly that - sometimes things need to GET stirred up to open up some people's minds on the fact that "business as usual" is BAD for the HET organization. It claims to want new and younger membership, but its actions say otherwise.

Everyone has SOMETHING to offer here. It is high time for HET to start paying attention and get out of the "that's-the-way-we've-always-done-things" mindset, start listening to the membership, and modernizing the way it does business, pure and simple.

[hudsonkid]

That's one BIG problem, IMO, is that the national "leadership" barely acknowledges that this forum even exists! Look at all of the FREE publicity that HET gets (at least, free to HET) here! Do they recognize this? Somehow, I doubt it.

Paul, your suggestion to help only HET members reeks of exclusiveness, especially since HET pays zip for this forum. It IS an open forum.

Kid is absolutely correct in that getting HET into the 21st Century and e-commerce costs nothing. There are several people here that have offered their expertise for free (or nearly so) to do exactly that. Where is the official HET response to these more-than-generous offers of assistance?

Everyone has SOMETHING to offer here. It is high time for HET to start paying attention and get out of the "that's-the-way-we've-always-done-things" mindset, start listening to the membership, and modernizing the way it does business, pure and simple.

i would like to see you back in the HET club, as well. Find out what needs to be done, and join. I thought for a long time they didn't need me, but they really do. They need each of us.

Hey, me and you have had our differences, and I don't care what the rest of the forum thinks of you, I like you, you got spirit... (hudsonkid ducks! ) hehe

As far as HET leadership, Park W will respond. he takes an active role in all of this. I bet he will even consider each suggestion and try to do his part, if he sees some promising ideas, or comments.

I was trying to figure out if I remember the HET president on here, ever, but I think he might have posted once or twice. Haven't seen him around for a while. It would be good.

[66patrick66]

Hey, Kid, I don't care what they think, either, I'm not here to be liked!:D

I really do like the Hudsons I've owned (seven so far), and the majority of folks here have been very helpful. Of course, the handful of sourpusses out there wouldn't be happy even if they were being hung with a new rope!:eek:

And, I've considered rejoining, even if just for the HET news magazine, which is one of the best car club publications around, period!

With that said, change MUST happen for HET to survive longer than another five to ten years. Younger members must be recruited. What is the current average HET member age - 65? 68? Like those who served in WWII - one day, you'll wake up to find most of them gone! For HET to survive, it HAS to join the 21st Century. It really is that simple.

[bellbigdawg]

I love hudsons, take great pains to restore parts and trucks to historic perfection. I got two other people to get into restoring a hudson vehicle. I spend at least one to two hours a day researching parts interchangeability and many, many gallons of gas to get information to make restoring hudsons easier. I have posted many informative posts on the forum, sell nice parts on ebay. have original antique hudson dealer signs and items in garage. without going on and on, I feel I am a true hudson hobbiest, all intentions are to help the hobby. I am also younger than the HET old timers, and regurally use all the high tech products to function day to day. I shop 100% on the web except food and gas, no landline telephone, only cell phone. all the web clubs and sites I frequent have nice online stores, credit card web renewal and sales, and an attitide that is to do all they can to get the younger generation involved in the hobby/club. all the younger guys I see text message all day, shop online, play video games, etc. all I think some of the guys are saying is this IS the future, and it IS here! also change is always a good thing, in the way we do things and think.

[rambos_ride]

Online Payments: This is drop dead simple to implement these days folks. The costs to HET credit processing fees of about 50.00 a month or 600.00 a year to provide and the bank fees for handling credit card transactions (usually about 1.5% of the transaction amount) - but, I guess the HET club is so cash strapped this can't happen?

Jay suggested he'd be willing to pay more to cover the incidental costs to manage this online payment functionality - I'd submit that the HET can absorb these costs easily because of an increase in online sales and membership enrollments.

Online WTN: I have read thru a couple of copies of the WTN, and although some of the content is dated (as in not targeting the younger crowd) it is a World Class Publication and they do spend a bit of $$ on publishing it.

The thing is...if the WTN copy is sent to the printer as an electronic formatted file why isn't this available for viewing online? If the WTN is not sent to the Printer in Electronic format - I'd bet the printer converts it to digital....

Honestly there should be MAJOR EFFORT to get every WTN magazine ever created digitized and available online for MEMBERS ONLY to view - that alone would increase membership by 30% I'd bet and be worth an increase in membership costs to pay for the intiative.

Online Members Only Area: I mentioned above that the WTN should be available online in a Members Only area. There should be articles on colorful HET characters, histories and pictures of famous Hudsons, etc...there could be a whole host of goodies in this section to promote and enhance the club.

[Jimalberta]

Right on Dan, your point about WTN back issues online is an awesome idea.

Future Old Fart

[hudsonkid]

Dan, these are great ideas. I personally feel, even though the WTN is a terrific publication, let's face it, printing is going the way of the dinosaur, and to further this notion, I work in printing.

I think that the choice should be available, for each member to recieve a printed version of the WTN, or receive it online, via e-mail, in PDF format. It would be easy to do, and it would reduce printing costs. I bet there are a lot of members that would jump at this. I think it should be encouraged, and even offer a discount, to those members that decide they would rather receive it electronically. And, those that get it electronically, would have a fair shot on the classifieds, and the debate that certain regions get theirs first, that would be over, as well.

At years end, make the entire year available on CD, for any member that would like a copy.

Further, all of the WTN shoul be made available electronically. year by year, on CD, available, as a resource for any member that would want a copy.

I like the idea of online member's only areas. Sounds like you start offering incentive or additional value, it would be even more appealing to those that already are tech savy enough to be online.

you could still cater to those that might not want to be online, and further cater to those that want the bonuses of participating online.

I think that everyone that conducts business online would be willing to pay the additional surcharge to have the convenience. I would be more than willing to utilize the club store, if it were more convenient.

[bellbigdawg]

I work at a little ol harley davidson shop in St. Paul, Minnesota. we sell harley shirts, books, jewelry, etc. sales were a little down, so we opened an Amazon.com store. typical sales are over $200,000.00 a MONTH on just the Amazon store now, and increasing. so many ways to make a larger and financially stronger club.

[66patrick66]

To all you "no-changers" out there - listed above are a LOT of easy-to-implement ideas that would do much to launch HET into the modern era without isolating a soul, and costing very little in time or money. Comments?

Another magnificent idea - sell HET apparel, cups, mugs, mousepads, etc, on www.cafepress.com where there is NO inventory to maintain, members can order any of literally hundreds of styles of shirts, jackets, and all sorts of items online. There is NO inventory to be kept by HET! All that needs to be given to cafepress to produce any of these items is artwork! It is all produced on-demand! It's so freakin' easy!

Jeez, isn't the 21st Century FUN?:D

[hudsonkid]

To all you "no-changers" out there - listed above are a LOT of easy-to-implement ideas that would do much to launch HET into the modern era without isolating a soul, and costing very little in time or money. Comments?

Another magnificent idea - sell HET apparel, cups, mugs, mousepads, etc, on www.cafepress.com where there is NO inventory to maintain, members can order any of literally hundreds of styles of shirts, jackets, and all sorts of items online. There is NO inventory to be kept by HET! All that needs to be given to cafepress to produce any of these items is artwork! It is all produced on-demand! It's so freakin' easy!

Jeez, isn't the 21st Century FUN?:D

hey, let's take it easy. I want us to be able to use this thread to be productive. If we keep taking tiny diggs, we won't be able to get any kind of receptive repsonse. I do like the cafepress.com idea.

[Dave53-7C]

Humm, hudsonkid should use Cafepress for his campaign shirts.

[66patrick66]

Kid, where am I digging? I'm making the point, aren't I? Folks need a little "shakin' up" now and then! They want suggestions, here we are!

[hudsonkid]

Kid, where am I digging? I'm making the point, aren't I? Folks need a little "shakin' up" now and then! They want suggestions, here we are!

I know, I just want us to all tread easy. And I know that most of us that responded (heck, and started this thread) that's like asking any one of us to perform a miracle... but well, let's do our best to put our ideas out there, and be a congenial as we can.

just trying to make it so there are no excuses why these ideas are not taken seriously.

[Dave53-7C]

You know how those presidential hopefulls are. ;)

[46super6]

Husonkid,

Well I for one am glad to hear that you are going to join. I think you can only make changes from the inside. None of the changes, or as I would call them "upgrades", are anything to be afraid of. I would renew my membership and buy stuff from the club store online if I could. Most HET members are not online and don't understand how the web can really help the club become bigger and better. They have to be shown. Maybe you are the one to show them.

[hudsonkid]

my thoughts do include the idea that you need to make the changes from the inside, but in fact you need to take the voice of opposition, and listen to it as well. One underlying theme that keeps occurring, is the notion that unless you're in, your opinin does not matter. While this is a fine response, it doesn't necessarily benefit anyone. All it does is furthers the them against us mentality. I think that those on the outside have valid points, and if you want to assemble all of the hudson owners under the HET umbrella, you need to listen to what they are saying, to get them to come in from out of the rain.

[denverslim]

Hudsonkid, as a newcomer to both the forum and HET, I must tell you that I am somewhat offended by the way you promote yourself as "ruler of the Hudson board" and your irreverant self-promotion as future president of the HET only a day after listing club short-comings and saying you would never join until changes are made.
I am in the club because I own a Terraplane and am always looking for expertise in restoring and maintaining it, and sharing that experience with other owners. I occaisionally check out the forum for that same reason. I, too, am probably one of the "younger" members, and I have had some wonderful exchange with some of the old-timers here and look forward to more.
I, for one, am tired of seeing you bully your way around the site, and am very happy to discover that you are not much more than a kid with a computer. It was only until this most recent exchange that I realized that you were not even in the club, did not in any way represent it, and indeed were not the "Hudson Club Boss". And I am soooo happy to find this out.
Now, if you will excuse me, I am going out and shovel the walk to my garage to change the oil in my '36....denverslim. Keith Fullmer, Denver, Co

[Rarerodder]

Hudsonkid, as a newcomer to both the forum and HET, I must tell you that I am somewhat offended by the way you promote yourself as "ruler of the Hudson board" and your irreverant self-promotion as future president of the HET only a day after listing club short-comings and saying you would never join until changes are made.
I am in the club because I own a Terraplane and am always looking for expertise in restoring and maintaining it, and sharing that experience with other owners. I occaisionally check out the forum for that same reason. I, too, am probably one of the "younger" members, and I have had some wonderful exchange with some of the old-timers here and look forward to more.
It was only until this most recent exchange that I realized that you were not even in the club, did not in any way represent it, and indeed were not the "Hudson Club Boss". And I am soooo happy to find this out....denverslim. Keith Fullmer, Denver, Co

Very well put, Keith. I've been following all of these threads for the past several days and I have been simply amazed at the audacity exhibited here. I've kept telling myself that the way to deal with a loud-mouth is to just ignore them. But, I digress. "Ruler of Flip-Flopping" would be a more appropriate title. Kid, you have shown your true colors at the beginning of several of these threads and if you are sincere in wanting to 'change' your approach and truly wish to become a POSITIVE influence, you've got alot to prove of yourself. Though you seem to be on the righteous path now, I suggest you go back and study much of what you've said and realize the perception you have created. I'm not going to rant the right or wrong ideas of what is needed in our club, that's for the members who really care about it to decide. I just hope that our club can remain FUN (and not the definition of 'fun' you have referred to here numerous times), and also not become one of controversy and stress that some of the caliber of persons I have witnessed here are sure to offer.

[nhp1127]

Online Payments: This is drop dead simple to implement these days folks. The costs to HET credit processing fees of about 50.00 a month or 600.00 a year to provide and the bank fees for handling credit card transactions (usually about 1.5% of the transaction amount) - but, I guess the HET club is so cash strapped this can't happen?

Jay suggested he'd be willing to pay more to cover the incidental costs to manage this online payment functionality - I'd submit that the HET can absorb these costs easily because of an increase in online sales and membership enrollments.

Online WTN: I have read thru a couple of copies of the WTN, and although some of the content is dated (as in not targeting the younger crowd) it is a World Class Publication and they do spend a bit of $$ on publishing it.

The thing is...if the WTN copy is sent to the printer as an electronic formatted file why isn't this available for viewing online? If the WTN is not sent to the Printer in Electronic format - I'd bet the printer converts it to digital....

Honestly there should be MAJOR EFFORT to get every WTN magazine ever created digitized and available online for MEMBERS ONLY to view - that alone would increase membership by 30% I'd bet and be worth an increase in membership costs to pay for the intiative.

Online Members Only Area: I mentioned above that the WTN should be available online in a Members Only area. There should be articles on colorful HET characters, histories and pictures of famous Hudsons, etc...there could be a whole host of goodies in this section to promote and enhance the club.


Dan- You are right on. It's about time the club gets to where it can reach the electronic masses. The club has enough money to do it if they want to. It's longtime poor club leadership that hasn't recognized this key growth area. The club is a business and needs to be run like one in order to grow and stay strong. I've been a member for a few years now and it is cetainly worth every penny. Seems a shame that smaller, less significant clubs have a better on-line prescence. If people want great Hudson info, let them access it thru their membership number on-line. Lot's of great things that can be done. And no, I don't want to be president. I will when my two kids get out of school in 10 years and I retire......

[hudsonkid]

Hudsonkid, as a newcomer to both the forum and HET, I must tell you that I am somewhat offended by the way you promote yourself as "ruler of the Hudson board" and your irreverant self-promotion as future president of the HET only a day after listing club short-comings and saying you would never join until changes are made.
I am in the club because I own a Terraplane and am always looking for expertise in restoring and maintaining it, and sharing that experience with other owners. I occaisionally check out the forum for that same reason. I, too, am probably one of the "younger" members, and I have had some wonderful exchange with some of the old-timers here and look forward to more.
I, for one, am tired of seeing you bully your way around the site, and am very happy to discover that you are not much more than a kid with a computer. It was only until this most recent exchange that I realized that you were not even in the club, did not in any way represent it, and indeed were not the "Hudson Club Boss". And I am soooo happy to find this out.
Now, if you will excuse me, I am going out and shovel the walk to my garage to change the oil in my '36....denverslim. Keith Fullmer, Denver, Co

well, you answer your own concerns stating that you are a new member here, not knowing the full breadth and depth of my time here on the forum. I am not the "ruler of the hudson forum" it is merely a funny title, that I think kinda sticks. It is actually there to irritate guys like you that don't get it. So I guess it worked.

As far as the future president of the HET club, geez dude, read my posts, lighten up, a lot, it was not to be taken seriously. I think if you spent a few moments actually reading my posts, you would have understood them right away, rather than even having to post a reply here, at all, and in fact take away from what I am trying to accomplish here... (read thread title)

As far as me listing club shortcomings one day, then saying I'm gonna join, please enlighten the rest of the forum with this vast list of shortcomings I listed, and further promote your position. I want to be able to see where I have erred in my ways. quote if you like, I just want to see where I may have slammed the club here, and not looked to find avenues of bona fide improvements.

As far as the old timers, I'm trying hard to figure out where I have said a negatively placed word towards that faction of the club, please show me that as well.

As far as not being in the club, that's gonna change, so I guess some sour days are to come for you! And furthermore, I don't think I bully anyone on this forum. My replies are far less offensive then this reply you offered here.

And a kid in front of a computer? geez, just remember, I grew out of my awkward stage, that's all. I bet dollars to terraplanes, you view anyone that is in their 30's or 40's, as a kid, huh? that gets old, and honestly, is a bit demeaning. Maybe it's time to take a lesson on 21st century political correctness...

My advice to you, denverslim, is go out there shovel that walk, and be upset all day over what I posted on the forum here. I'll have a hug waiting for you when you come back in from changing that oil, dude. I'm figuring you just had a bad day, since the wife left the walk to shovel for you. She should have changed that oil too. :D

Oh Denverslim, don't forget to vote in my poll!

take care! stay warm! hudsonkid!

[hudsonkid]

Very well put, Keith. I've been following all of these threads for the past several days and I have been simply amazed at the audacity exhibited here. I've kept telling myself that the way to deal with a loud-mouth is to just ignore them. But, I digress. "Ruler of Flip-Flopping" would be a more appropriate title. Kid, you have shown your true colors at the beginning of several of these threads and if you are sincere in wanting to 'change' your approach and truly wish to become a POSITIVE influence, you've got alot to prove of yourself. Though you seem to be on the righteous path now, I suggest you go back and study much of what you've said and realize the perception you have created. I'm not going to rant the right or wrong ideas of what is needed in our club, that's for the members who really care about it to decide. I just hope that our club can remain FUN (and not the definition of 'fun' you have referred to here numerous times), and also not become one of controversy and stress that some of the caliber of persons I have witnessed here are sure to offer.

no Keith did not put this well enough. I speak of an epiphany of sorts to understand my current position here. Only now do I realize that anything I want to see changed in the HET club, I will have to be an agent of change for. I don't know where you guys see me posting here in the last several days, any negative connotation towards the HET club or their leadership, and I challenge you guys to produce one instance where I have said something as such. Further, I think that my outline listed, I can become a positive influence for the club, I just wonder how the club will utilize my talents to promote the club. As far as perception I have created, I created no such thing. I believe that several people here need to go back and re read several threads, and re evaluate those perceptions that they have created. People change, and in the past I was critical, and now, I feel the need to be my own agent of change.

[larumo]

Another argument for an online shop/membership is the foreign wannabe members. Ever thought about the people outside the US. I would be much easier for them to join. Even I still do not own a Hudson (still searching an early stepdown), I thought about joining HET, bought refrained so far because of this snail mail thing.

[Sarah Young]

Although there's a couple things I'm curious about in the club store, I have never purchased anything, because there's no picture to know what I'm buying. I think Amazon or something along that lines is a great idea. Or, at least having the link on the national het site link to an actual online shopping page. They can create a Paypal account if nothing else and set up their paypal account to charge the customer an x amount for given price ranges.

And to those who think the national club is entirely left in the dust... At least they have the hudsonclub.org website that gives people the opportunity to use a photo gallery, links to a chat room, and especially a link to this forum. I think it would be great if they did do more of an interface between the White Triangle and the internet, though. Many other auto magazines will have a great article on a car someone did an awesome job on, but sometimes that isn't quite enough for the reader. The reader may want to know what other cars this person owns or has restored and they provide website link where the reader can delve more into a topic. I wish there were more opportunities like that in the magazine.

On the other hand, when my magzine comes in, I usually spend all of 2 minutes flipping through the pages glacing at the pictures, and rarely find an article I stop to actually read. Then off I go to hop on the Hudson forum! :)

[Ron P]

Hudsonkid, as a newcomer to both the forum and HET, I must tell you that I am somewhat offended by the way you promote yourself as "ruler of the Hudson board" and your irreverant self-promotion as future president of the HET only a day after listing club short-comings and saying you would never join until changes are made.
I am in the club because I own a Terraplane and am always looking for expertise in restoring and maintaining it, and sharing that experience with other owners. I occaisionally check out the forum for that same reason. I, too, am probably one of the "younger" members, and I have had some wonderful exchange with some of the old-timers here and look forward to more.
I, for one, am tired of seeing you bully your way around the site, and am very happy to discover that you are not much more than a kid with a computer. It was only until this most recent exchange that I realized that you were not even in the club, did not in any way represent it, and indeed were not the "Hudson Club Boss". And I am soooo happy to find this out.
Now, if you will excuse me, I am going out and shovel the walk to my garage to change the oil in my '36....denverslim. Keith Fullmer, Denver, Co

VERY VERY WELL SAID MR. DENVERSLIM AND I AGREE 100%. Thanks, Ron

[hudsonkid]

another thing I think the HET club should look at is creating a formal complaint review board, where if one member has an issue of reasonable concern about another member, say from a business dealing or something, the two members in dispute, can take their issue to the mediation table, and have the problem reviewed, and solved, only they need to live with the resolution. I would even think it would be a good idea to allow each member to choose one member of the HET in good standing, and a third one will be chosen from the standing members of the BOD to hear the "case" > I feel going forward, the HET club should take a part in member disputes, and resolution.

[hudsonkid]

Another argument for an online shop/membership is the foreign wannabe members. Ever thought about the people outside the US. I would be much easier for them to join. Even I still do not own a Hudson (still searching an early stepdown), I thought about joining HET, bought refrained so far because of this snail mail thing.

I will offer to the board ideas to how this could be fixed, and ask where I can help out in finding a solution. As soon as my membership is received, reviewed, and accepted.

[hudsonkid]

I also think it would be good to have the club develop a plan that would not only maintain membership, but attract membership, and the plan should include 1,5, and 10 year goals. Finding a cure for death does not count towards a reasonable method to maintain membership. Perhaps a courtesy membership for those that lose an aging family member, for the kids, if there are any, to encourage that a departed loved one's hudson stays in the family, and perhaps fosters a new generation of hudson afficionado's...

[essexcoupe3131]

Another argument for an online shop/membership is the foreign wannabe members. Ever thought about the people outside the US. I would be much easier for them to join. Even I still do not own a Hudson (still searching an early stepdown), I thought about joining HET, bought refrained so far because of this snail mail thing.

I am currently a member of both the New Zealand HET club and the US HET as well, it would be nice to do things on line and even purchase something from the store , but like what has already been stated that you need to see what you are going to buy and in my case what it is going to cost for shipping.
As Geoff Clark put in another thread when questioned about how long he had been a member, the isssues he went through in the draconian days down under to belong to the HET club (US) was unbelievable and to be applauded, it shows the dedication that some of the long time members went through and he now apairs to be well computer savy.
Computers and online buying, this is the way to a stronger HET future
Mike

[denverslim]

Hudsonkid, please do not send me any more private messages. I am not intimidated by them and will just delete them immediately as I have the others. I have no desire to communicate with you privately.

[Geoff C., N.Z.]

How does the old saying go? - "Shallow brooks are noisy"!

[Jay G]

In not one of the so called suggestions did I see any of the suggesters stand up and say they are willing to help implement their ideas. Maybe the reason there is not more on the web is because no one has volunteered to do it. The club is for the most part a volunteer organization and as such is dependent on its members. If YOU really want to have an on line store.....DO IT and run it for the benefit of everyone! Can't do that? To much work? It won't make you any money? No one will pay me for it......grow up! There is your answer.

Jay

[hudsonkid]

In not one of the so called suggestions did I see any of the suggesters stand up and say they are willing to help implement their ideas. Maybe the reason there is not more on the web is because no one has volunteered to do it. The club is for the most part a volunteer organization and as such is dependent on its members. If YOU really want to have an on line store.....DO IT and run it for the benefit of everyone! Can't do that? To much work? It won't make you any money? No one will pay me for it......grow up! There is your answer.

Jay

uh, actually, I did, volunteer, once my membership is accepted, to try to do whatever I can do to make some of my suggestions happen.

I will post a specific post number and thread title later for you to reference.

[hudsonkid]

Hudsonkid, please do not send me any more private messages. I am not intimidated by them and will just delete them immediately as I have the others. I have no desire to communicate with you privately.

It is not an issue of intimidation, d.s., (hmmm. d.s., I like that :cool:) I was hoping to segway into a dialect with you to find out why you are so cranky, and what your problem is... Anyway, I would appreciate you get off your highhorse, and when you post in regard to me, I would appreciate you get your facts straight. I didn't say anything to you, or about you, so lighten up. I look forward to what you got to say, but next time, let's be more civil, eh?

So with that in mind, if you got any ideas or suggestions that fall within the parameters of this topic subject, please share. Otherwise, I would suggest that you find another walk to shovel.

BTW, if anyone on this forum wishes to know what I PM'd d.s., it was a simple statement of, " Hey, i thought you had a walk to shovel" or something like that, no harm, no foul. Just someone being overly sensitive. And in his above post, you can see that he said "messages" and in fact, I only pM'd him this one message. So it sounds like d.s. is trying to make up a story here.

[66patrick66]

...stirrin' the pot, eh, Kid!:D

Now, see what you did! You got a whole new section started! Thanks, Jon and the admin guy, for doing that! Now, the folks that don't want to talk about anything except Hudsons can do what they do.

Pretty amazing couple of days, if ya ask me! Get some dialogue going (some don't want to hear, of course!), get some minds to thinkin', might even change a few of them, who knows?

It is a healthy thing, despite what some might think right now.

President Kid. When that time comes, it'll be a good thing. Maybe some things WILL change finally, who knows?

[hudsonkid]

who knows. i think that everyone changes over time, and heck, jsut think a year ago, we couldn't see eye to eye, and I consider you one of my forum friends. But it was much the same with Rambos, jsrail, maybe even a bit with dave 53-7C, and I guess the list goes on and on...

I don't know why some of these guys are the way they are. maybe they're not eating right.

I do like the new set-up here. Keep us trouble makers in one spot, and the rest of the forum can go on as it sees fit. we cvan go there for spirited spark plug discussion, and come here for fun polls, and off beat discussion...

I bet you see a major cut back in the traffic on the regular hudson board. those guys will miss my wonderful posts and witty humor. you'll see.

66, you ever get to Doc's meet? isn't that closer to you?

[walt norem]

Online Payments: This is drop dead simple to implement these days folks. The costs to HET credit processing fees of about 50.00 a month or 600.00 a year to provide and the bank fees for handling credit card transactions (usually about 1.5% of the transaction amount) - but, I guess the HET club is so cash strapped this can't happen?

Jay suggested he'd be willing to pay more to cover the incidental costs to manage this online payment functionality - I'd submit that the HET can absorb these costs easily because of an increase in online sales and membership enrollments.

Online WTN: I have read thru a couple of copies of the WTN, and although some of the content is dated (as in not targeting the younger crowd) it is a World Class Publication and they do spend a bit of $$ on publishing it.

The thing is...if the WTN copy is sent to the printer as an electronic formatted file why isn't this available for viewing online? If the WTN is not sent to the Printer in Electronic format - I'd bet the printer converts it to digital....

Honestly there should be MAJOR EFFORT to get every WTN magazine ever created digitized and available online for MEMBERS ONLY to view - that alone would increase membership by 30% I'd bet and be worth an increase in membership costs to pay for the intiative.

Online Members Only Area: I mentioned above that the WTN should be available online in a Members Only area. There should be articles on colorful HET characters, histories and pictures of famous Hudsons, etc...there could be a whole host of goodies in this section to promote and enhance the club.

I'm glad to see someone is doing their homework! The club store's current management is working on the credit card acceptance, as is the next! So we put that part of this "discussion" to rest.

[66patrick66]

I intend to get to Doc's meet next year. It is a hell of a lot closer than any of the Nats for the forseeable future (I do want to make the 100-year anniversary meet in Detroit, though!). Toss the '37 on the trailer and take her out! It is driving so nice now! I've been procrastinating on putting the running boards on it, which requires loosening the rear fenders to attach the boards properly. That, and color-sanding and buffing the car. No biggie, though.

[hudsonkid]

I'm glad to see someone is doing their homework! The club store's current management is working on the credit card acceptance, as is the next! So we put that part of this "discussion" to rest.

it's definitely a step in the right direction. Right now, I am working on finding out what it takes to set up a payment processing web page "store" I got a few friends that have done this, and wanted to get the low down on it. I think the club store should be on line, with pictures, of the merchandise, and have a proper checkout feature, that calculates shipping, etc... and accepts online payment. I will offer up my skill set to help them acheive this, if they accept my offer to assist.

just being able to accept credit cards is nothing. I can accept credit cards for good or services, and heck, i'm just a regular ole eBay seller, and sell on other online forum. Nothing difficult about that.

[hudsonkid]

I think the HET club should look at the rodder versus purist divide, and find a way to help bridge that gap. Get each group involved in activities, together, promote the special interests, support tech sessions about modernizing your hudson, etc.... Organize a cruise where the rodders drive with a few purists, and vice a versa....

[rambos_ride]

it's definitely a step in the right direction. Right now, I am working on finding out what it takes to set up a payment processing web page "store" I got a few friends that have done this, and wanted to get the low down on it. I think the club store should be on line, with pictures, of the merchandise, and have a proper checkout feature, that calculates shipping, etc... and accepts online payment. I will offer up my skill set to help them acheive this, if they accept my offer to assist.

just being able to accept credit cards is nothing. I can accept credit cards for good or services, and heck, i'm just a regular ole eBay seller, and sell on other online forum. Nothing difficult about that.

There is no mystery to setting up online payments - I was doing this 8 years ago when it was a PIA - now all you have to do is go to your bank (or your bank's online site) they have all the information you need on what to do and what coding, if any, is required to setup Credit Card processing.

It isn't free - most authentication services like Authorize.Net charge a monthly fee, on top of any fees your bank charges for processing. Then Amex, and Discover charge an extra fee monthly.

Paypal is another easy avenue to accepting online payments - they have all the information you need online to hook into their system. Yes, it isn't free either as they charge a fee.

But I don't get where people get all up in arms about paying fees to process the transaction anyway. These fees pay for their services and the liabilities they assume in authorizing and handling the transactions - we all gotta make a living.

Bottom line total costs are less than 800.00 a year to implement online payments + processing fees per transaction for a business entity.

Having online payments for the store is only 1/2 of the online payment issue - what about joining or re-newing HET membership?

Heck - they could even have an online donation section for others who just want to donate to the cause above and beyond a membership fee. :eek:

[hudsonkid]

I would think that if the club would have a paypal account set up as a premiere account, they would get charged 3% to accept credit cards, or other transactions. Just pass the fee on to those that use the service, that's all. Cost would be nothing, if they pass on the 3%.

The only down side, is that they need to make it paypal only, to avoid the bigger fee, and honestly, anyone using online payment, has a paypal account.

[hudsondad]

I would think that if the club would have a paypal account set up as a premiere account, they would get charged 3% to accept credit cards, or other transactions. Just pass the fee on to those that use the service, that's all. Cost would be nothing, if they pass on the 3%.

The only down side, is that they need to make it paypal only, to avoid the bigger fee, and honestly, anyone using online payment, has a paypal account.

I don't have one, can I use Yours??

[Browniepetersen]

Just a thought here, I believe in progression. I know that some of the ideas I have read in these posts have a price tag assigned to them, or a knowledge of a system be it a computer or what ever. Why not write up a proposal, submitt it to your local Regional Director and then volunteer to do what is necessary to make it happen. A good director is always looking for good ideas to make the club be better. If we want change and not just a place to whine--why not take that extra step, place yourself out there and be the change agent? And if anyone truely wants to be National President--that can happen, after all this is a volunteer organization.

[hudsonkid]

ehh, read my other post about the president thing. Anyway, I plan on taking all of the ideas presented here, and e-mailing all of the directors, and the rest of the leadership of the HET club, to let them know what's on my mind. Also, I will offer up my time to see what initiatives, if any they would like to focus on. I know they aren't gonna say, hey, lets work on all of them, but at the same time, if it is something like getting the club to be able to accept online payment, that is a perfect start. Just like the challenge that the ADMIN on the board offered me, you can see how simple and quick it was for me to put up a simple web page, that accepted donations via paypal, less than 10 minutes.

I sincerely believe that I need to help foster the change, that struggling with these issues inside or outside the club, no longer works. I don't think it is a whinning, but this thread is more of an idea thread, and I think it has brought forward a lot of good ideas.

Like I said, club president, I'm doubtful of myself ever being even close for consideration. Who knows, perhaps one day, people will look at me and say, that hudsonkid did a lot of good for the HET club, and that would make me happy.

[hudsontech]

Hudsonkid wrote:
4) As far as the club store photo issue, whenever my membership is recieved, I will wait until someone asks me for my help and put as much effort as i can into helping bring about some of the changes outlined. I will solicit whoever I need to make sure that I try to drive these changes, if they don't happen, it will then not be from my own not wanting to facilitate those changes. and I will do it for free, in my spare time, as well.

Well, Hudsonkid, you can "wait until someone asks for your help" but, you may wait a long time.
You want to help, you find something that needs doing, roll up your sleeves and pitch in. Nobody "asked for my help" when I started my web sites and scanning everything in sight to be put on the web - I saw a need, and did it. I'm one of those that quietly works behind the scenes doing whatever it takes to make this club what it is today - (to paraphrase a great mechanic) The Best Damn Hudson Club in Town!!!

Hudsonly,
Alex Burr
HudsonTech
Memphis, TN

[hudsonkid]

Hudsonkid wrote:
4) As far as the club store photo issue, whenever my membership is recieved, I will wait until someone asks me for my help and put as much effort as i can into helping bring about some of the changes outlined. I will solicit whoever I need to make sure that I try to drive these changes, if they don't happen, it will then not be from my own not wanting to facilitate those changes. and I will do it for free, in my spare time, as well.

Well, Hudsonkid, you can "wait until someone asks for your help" but, you may wait a long time.
You want to help, you find something that needs doing, roll up your sleeves and pitch in. Nobody "asked for my help" when I started my web sites and scanning everything in sight to be put on the web - I saw a need, and did it. I'm one of those that quietly works behind the scenes doing whatever it takes to make this club what it is today - (to paraphrase a great mechanic) The Best Damn Hudson Club in Town!!!

Hudsonly,
Alex Burr
HudsonTech
Memphis, TN

What do you suggest I do? Just host a HET webpage for the club, myself, without permission? I got many ideas, and I figure, if I offer up the ideas, and suggestions, and help, I can only go so far. I cannot take control of someone else's project, website, or whatever, unless I am told to do so. I guess I could have phrased that a bit better, but I think that is more my intent...

LIKE THIS... I'm going to offer everything up that is on my mind, and explain to those in charge what I can do, and further explain that the help and assistance is available, but after that, they need to ask me, (or heck, even assign me specific tasks) what they want me to do.

I hope that offers a bit more clarification. This is one of those areas, where I can't just go a do something my way. I need parameters, and objectives, assigned from someone else. I need someone to explain to me what the end product should be. I think I can do it, but, I need direction, and permission.

One thing you need to consider, that the HET may be the "Best Damn Hudson Club there is" but two points, 1) It's the only one, so who's to say there couldn't be a better one? and 2) Is there any reason it couldn't be better? Is there no room for improvements? just food for thought.

When we get romantic that something is perfect, we become resistant to change, and become blind in the notion that there is in fact, beneficial change that could occur. It's easier to resist change, and remain happy with how things are, and get stuck in one way of doing things. Seems to me that is the biggest issue I see.

And as far as your web resources, I applaud you for your perseverence, and effort. More patience than I would have to scan all the stuff you did, then upload it. geez. Maybe you need to tackle this whole online payment thingy, with me? :D

Take care Alex!

[hudsontech]

What do you suggest I do? Just host a HET webpage for the club, myself, without permission? I got many ideas, and I figure, if I offer up the ideas, and suggestions, and help, I can only go so far. I cannot take control of someone else's project, website, or whatever, unless I am told to do so. I guess I could have phrased that a bit better, but I think that is more my intent...

LIKE THIS... I'm going to offer everything up that is on my mind, and explain to those in charge what I can do, and further explain that the help and assistance is available, but after that, they need to ask me, (or heck, even assign me specific tasks) what they want me to do.

I hope that offers a bit more clarification. This is one of those areas, where I can't just go a do something my way. I need parameters, and objectives, assigned from someone else. I need someone to explain to me what the end product should be. I think I can do it, but, I need direction, and permission.

One thing you need to consider, that the HET may be the "Best Damn Hudson Club there is" but two points, 1) It's the only one, so who's to say there couldn't be a better one? and 2) Is there any reason it couldn't be better? Is there no room for improvements? just food for thought.

When we get romantic that something is perfect, we become resistant to change, and become blind in the notion that there is in fact, beneficial change that could occur. It's easier to resist change, and remain happy with how things are, and get stuck in one way of doing things. Seems to me that is the biggest issue I see.

And as far as your web resources, I applaud you for your perseverence, and effort. More patience than I would have to scan all the stuff you did, then upload it. geez. Maybe you need to tackle this whole online payment thingy, with me? :D

Take care Alex!

" I'm going to offer everything up that is on my mind, and explain to those in charge what I can do," - That's a start in the right direction.

HET may be the "Best Damn Hudson Club there is... My mistake - I should have said "Best Damn Car Club in Town......" And I got 37 years in the club to back that up.

What do you suggest I do? Just host a HET webpage for the club, myself, without permission? I didn't ask anybody's permission to start an HET web page - and I got 30 + Hudson web sites in my links list (most are, or were HET members) and I don't beleive they asked anybody's permission to start an HET web site. My site is my own creation and has nothing "official" to do with the Hudson club in any way, shape or manor - it just is. Some of the material I've put on my site (and Gregg Maroney's) has either been duplicated on other sites, or placed on other sites - and that's just fine. You don't shoot ducks with a rifle - you use a shotgun and a few pellets will hit the target. Any material taken from another web site should have an acknowledgement - some of the sites using my material do this with a link to my site.

Hudsonly,
Alex Burr
HudsonTech
Memphis, TN

[hudsonkid]

I get a lot of PM's sometimes good, sometimes bad, but I read them all. One of those I recieved had a statement that I wanted to share to really see if it hits all of you to the core as it did me. It makes me feel that there are some great issues at hand, if someone writes something like this, and let me say, I am keeping the person anonymous, but at the same time, I think it needs shared...

"These HET’ers always like to pat themselves on the back about non-judging of cars but they can sure judge a person and their ideas."

Discuss if you like, please keep in mind, I DID NOT WRITE THIS, only thought that the sentiments should be shared. I am not prepared to necessarily support or discount this idea, I just thought that it would be an interesting statement to share, maybe to have a look at a general perception.

If you are curious, this may have been written by one of the "so called" old timers. It surprised me a great deal, regardless.

*edit* as one thing I will mention, I have gotten a lot of positive feedback about the ideas that I have mentioned on the forum, so I don't agree with this statement, I just wanted to share this, because it made me feel a little sad, even.

[silverone]

Well HudsonKid, I suppose I'm quickly becoming one of the "oldtimers" in this world, because computers were'nt even invented when I was in school, but I can't imagine life without them today.

Recognizing the necesity to join the 20th century, I grabbed a "how to" book and "hunted and pecked" my way through a learning curve that I'm every day thankfull I took the time to do. Once you discover this link to virtually everything else in the world, there's no turning back. I rarely buy anything major now, without checking out other sources for the same item online anywhere else, what its worth somewhere else, and what it'll cost to get it to my door by comparrison to buying it locally. The reality for all the retailers out there today, is that their markets have become far, far more vast than ever before, and that they, like it or not, are going to be competing on a world market scale for pretty much anything you can imagine.

With respect to the HET club, and my membership, I've had my renewal application sitting right on my desk for a month or more now, so that I don't forget to send it in before February, but I just never seem to get it done until the last minute, because its such a pain to handwrite it all out, and find a envelope, and get a stamp, and remember to get it to the mailbox, and etc. etc. If I could have done it with a few keystrokes, it would have been done a long time ago !! Furthurmore, I'd love to see five, maybe ten year membership subscriptions available, ( or even lifetime ) so that I could just forget about renewals altogether. Having my membership in this club lapse for any reason would be a disaster to me !! Your suggestion of this feature being made available is bang-on in my mind, --- especially for those members that may be out of Country.

Secondly, your mention of the club store coming online (with pictures) is also right-on !! Mention of this brings to mind my dealings with KGap for one. I've had a couple of KGap catalogues kicking around for a few years, have browsed through them from time to time, wished for a few items they offer, but never really took the time to fill in an order form, mail it off, and wait for delivery, etc., ---- that is UNTIL THEY WENT ONLINE !! AS soon as they did that, --- bingo, --- I've ordered stuff well into a three figure total, several times in the past year or so, and communicated with them with questions about certain items from time to time, all online !! The point here is, if they weren't online, I'd probably be still sitting here dithering over whether I should get that money order, fill out the forms, get the stamps etc. etc. There's no question the club store would "take off" if I could shop there from right here at home anytime I took the notion. !!

Anyway, while my views of the Hudson hobby, may not mirror yours in every detail, I surely respect your freedom to express your own views and make suggestions as to how to "make things better" as you think it will.

As I mention in my own website "feel free to make comments or suggestions, whether positive or negative" !! It will only make us stonger if not better, in the long run !!

Keep on "abloging" ---- once in awhile, you hit the nail sqaure-on !!

silverone www.hudsoncollector.com

[Jimalberta]

Hey silverone I feel your pain about the hassle of doing things via snailmail. Just try adding to that the trouble of going out and converting currency as well. It becomes a major PITA!

[hudsonkid]

Hey silverone I feel your pain about the hassle of doing things via snailmail. Just try adding to that the trouble of going out and converting currency as well. It becomes a major PITA!

Ahhh, you Canadians should be happy to convert to US Dollars, right now. If you use paypal, it works out terrific. The dolar is weak, time to put in those KGAP orders, and buy stuff from the HET club store. Just don't take anymore of our hudsons across the boarder, or there will be trouble. :cool:

[Geoff C., N.Z.]

Well, one of the ONLY concessions we "foreign (alien, infidel, outsider) members get is the ability to pay by Credit Card for our membership renewal. Otherwise, it's all negative territory - $66 for Air mail postage of the W.T.N. which still takes 3 weeks to arrive, no voting rights, or opportunity to take part in club affairs unless at horrendous personal cost. Converting the "Membership" dues to our local currency brings it to N.Z.$100, which for 6 magazines per year equals around $17 per issue. Quite an expensive magazine. So thank you to the Club officials for at least one small mercy.
Geoff.

[Ron P]

Well, one of the ONLY concessions we "foreign (alien, infidel, outsider) members get is the ability to pay by Credit Card for our membership renewal. Otherwise, it's all negative territory - $66 for Air mail postage of the W.T.N. which still takes 3 weeks to arrive, no voting rights, or opportunity to take part in club affairs unless at horrendous personal cost. Converting the "Membership" dues to our local currency brings it to N.Z.$100, which for 6 magazines per year equals around $17 per issue. Quite an expensive magazine. So thank you to the Club officials for at least one small mercy.
Geoff.

HOLLY MOLLY AUNT HESTER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL....So if it were sent by boat you would be a year in the rear ?????

[hudsonkid]

Well, one of the ONLY concessions we "foreign (alien, infidel, outsider) members get is the ability to pay by Credit Card for our membership renewal. Otherwise, it's all negative territory - $66 for Air mail postage of the W.T.N. which still takes 3 weeks to arrive, no voting rights, or opportunity to take part in club affairs unless at horrendous personal cost. Converting the "Membership" dues to our local currency brings it to N.Z.$100, which for 6 magazines per year equals around $17 per issue. Quite an expensive magazine. So thank you to the Club officials for at least one small mercy.
Geoff.

Geoff, how would you feel about recveiving the WTN via e-mail, instead of by mail, and the long wait? I am just curious, because the wait put you guys down under in a different catergory, for sure. just your thoughts on it, pro and cons...

If it were set up that way, then the membership should be a standard fee, for everyone, around the world, if they opt for the electronic file, Just thinking out loud here.

I personally like to have something "physical" like a magazine, once and a while, for reference, but maybe for cases like this, it might be something to think about.

[Geoff C., N.Z.]

Geoff, how would you feel about recveiving the WTN via e-mail, instead of by mail, and the long wait? I am just curious, because the wait put you guys down under in a different catergory, for sure. just your thoughts on it, pro and cons...

If it were set up that way, then the membership should be a standard fee, for everyone, around the world, if they opt for the electronic file, Just thinking out loud here.

I personally like to have something "physical" like a magazine, once and a while, for reference, but maybe for cases like this, it might be something to think about.

Well, it's much more relaxing to sit and have cup of tea, pick up the W.T.N. and browse through it, rather than having to go turn the computer on, wait for it to crank up, then find the relevant file, and find then open it up, etc. etc. In spite of the wait, and the expense, I still prefer to have the magazine, and can plonk it in the book rack, read it at leisure, and then file it with the rest for reading again several years later. It just bugs me that in this day and age, airmail can take three weeks. If we pay airmail fees, that's the service we should get. I think it's the U.S. Postal service that are at fault here.
Geoff.

[51hornetA]

Geoff I would talk to Samj he just cleaned up a problem we were having where Canadians who were paying first class shipping were waiting 6 weeks to get the WTN. When we tracked down the problem the 3rd party the printer was using to mail out the first class to Canada was sending them out bulk surface. USPS was them waiting to fill that bulk bag before sending it. Most of the time it took six weeks. Now that they send it proper first class if its sent on Monday we get it one week later. I would ask exactly how is my WTN getting sent to NZ.

[hudsonkid]

Well, it's much more relaxing to sit and have cup of tea, pick up the W.T.N. and browse through it, rather than having to go turn the computer on, wait for it to crank up, then find the relevant file, and find then open it up, etc. etc. In spite of the wait, and the expense, I still prefer to have the magazine, and can plonk it in the book rack, read it at leisure, and then file it with the rest for reading again several years later. It just bugs me that in this day and age, airmail can take three weeks. If we pay airmail fees, that's the service we should get. I think it's the U.S. Postal service that are at fault here.
Geoff.

Okay, one more question...

what about a printable PDF?

just asking...

I do understand you point about the hard copy. I often times print out much of my research material for my other hobby, since it is a lot easier to have hard cpy notes to go to.

[Geoff C., N.Z.]

By the time I fiddle around, print, collate, pay for paper and printer ink - nah, not worth the bother, as it would still be inferior to the actual magazine in the mail.

[hudsondad]

I would imagine between printing costs and mailing 6X / year that most of the dues has to go toward the magazine. Timing is always an issue for some folks as the receive it weeks later. Why couldn't they give a discounted membership to those that wish to receive a copy by email? They would all receieve it the same day and earlier than 1st class mail. If you want a copy, print it out. I do agree the magazine is QUALITY!

[hudsonkid]

Thanks, Geoff, I appreciate the feedback. I understand your point.

As far as e-mail of the WTN, that's a goo idea as well. I think that should be perhaps an option, in addition to the mailing, because you have those folks that think this region gets it before that area, ETC.... and if everyone was on the bulk e-mail distro, then everyone gets it at the same time.

And if people still decide to receive it in print, then they get that benefit as well. I bet there are several out there that might actually like the idea of just getting it in print, if perhaps there was a discount to membership. I would imagine that there is a good portion of membership revenue that gets devoted to printing the WTN.

[junkcarfann]

E-mail of the WTN would mean that everybody would get their copy at the same time.

This would have the benefit of a level playing field for viewing the ads....everyone would get theirs at the same time.

But I would still want a hard copy to read!

[hudsonkid]

E-mail of the WTN would mean that everybody would get their copy at the same time.

This would have the benefit of a level playing field for viewing the ads....everyone would get theirs at the same time.

But I would still want a hard copy to read!

do you really think that's how the ads work in the WTN?

the Hudson community is small. I would imagine that by the time a member lists something in the WTN, that there are multiple people that already know it is available, even before Sam gets the ad for submission.

Who's to say that the folks that do the classifieds don't tell their "buddies" about something really good?

Now I doubt this one, because we actually were able to buy something really good listed in the WTN, that would not have lasted days, right when an issue came out.

Also, for what it's worth, I pretty much am convinced that Sam would not do this, and the ads come out in the issue, they're there, and everyone has a fair shot at it. period. I think that Sam is a straight shooter. I might not always like what he tells me, or posts in reply, but I feel he would not resort to this kind of behavior.

[essexcoupe3131]

Well, it's much more relaxing to sit and have cup of tea, pick up the W.T.N. and browse through it, rather than having to go turn the computer on, wait for it to crank up, then find the relevant file, and find then open it up, etc. etc. In spite of the wait, and the expense, I still prefer to have the magazine, and can plonk it in the book rack, read it at leisure, and then file it with the rest for reading again several years later. It just bugs me that in this day and age, airmail can take three weeks. If we pay airmail fees, that's the service we should get. I think it's the U.S. Postal service that are at fault here.
Geoff.

Here Here Geoff, your right $66-00 for air mail and all we see is threads that everyone is getting theres in the post and we are left out in the cold, I courier stuff all over the world and alot to Hawaii off and on and I get a pakage there in 3days via courier but airmail is airmail and its suppossed to be quick ,I would of thought snail mail was that fast.
You would have thought from 1 side of the states to the other and straight onto here should be the same or at least similar,as they all only go on 1 plane ride, maybe ours does a Singapore stop over or something LOL

Mike

[junkcarfann]

Hudsonkid...

Sure, other people probably know that certain items are for sale before publication. A car might have been advertised locally, for example. And some people will tell others in the club before going to the bother of listing it in the WTN.

Also, "insider" deals possibly might occur before an issue is printed or mailed...that is human nature.

None of that is not my point.

I am referring to the fact that the WTN arrives at different times depending upon unknown factors at the post office...some people get theirs much later than others. And going first class mail, as I do, is no guarantee that I will get mine sooner.

One reason people pay more for First Class mailing of the WTN is to get a better shot at the ads....That is why I pay for First Class, and I do not think I am the only one in the club to do that.

If the WTN is e-mailed, everyone gets it at the same time. Insider deals, if and when they occur, are already gone anyways; but the rest of the items for sale are available to everyone at the same time.

[TOM-WA-]

Rather than put the Entire WTN on E mail, why not start out small and make the ADS available at a preset time each issue. Thus people wanting an even playing field for the "GOOD STUFF" could log on at the same time that information becomes available to all...

A password could be installed if the Advertisments were only to be seen by paying members of the club..

Could even set up a website for the ADS or have a sub catagory here in the Forum...

[Pacemaker500]

I am referring to the fact that the WTN arrives at different times depending upon unknown factors at the post office...some people get theirs much later than others. And going first class mail, as I do, is no guarantee that I will get mine sooner.

I chose First Class because the other option, the USPS can openly ignore the WTN for delivery for up to about 30 days. Something about First Class mail has priority over media mail and media mail can be legally ignored. Check with your local Postmaster for the exact details.

But I never thought about the idea of getting the ads first. Maybe I should request Priority Over Night service.

Or how about Superman or "Flash" delivery.

In all seriousness, I would bet that the production of the WTN includes a PDF version for approvals (or could be, easily) and this PDF file could be sent to all members wanting an electronic copy (extra fee, maybe - maybe not) followed by the hard copy as currently done. the PDF could also be posted on the web-site.

This is what my collge fraternity national office does with our Quarterly publication. But I do not have to pay extra for the electronic copy.

[37 Terraplane#2]

I chose First Class because the other option, the USPS can openly ignore the WTN for delivery for up to about 30 days. Something about First Class mail has priority over media mail and media mail can be legally ignored. Check with your local Postmaster for the exact details.

But I never thought about the idea of getting the ads first. Maybe I should request Priority Over Night service.

Or how about Superman or "Flash" delivery.

In all seriousness, I would bet that the production of the WTN includes a PDF version for approvals (or could be, easily) and this PDF file could be sent to all members wanting an electronic copy (extra fee, maybe - maybe not) followed by the hard copy as currently done. the PDF could also be posted on the web-site.

This is what my collge fraternity national office does with our Quarterly publication. But I do not have to pay extra for the electronic copy.

HEY GUYS Lets not hear any more mention of that "insider deals" crap, that's a slam againsnt another HET volunteer, whether you actually accuse him or not.

[royer]

Rather than put the Entire WTN on E mail, why not start out small and make the ADS available at a preset time each issue. Thus people wanting an even playing field for the "GOOD STUFF" could log on at the same time that information becomes available to all...

A password could be installed if the Advertisments were only to be seen by paying members of the club..

Could even set up a website for the ADS or have a sub catagory here in the Forum...

Tom, I think that's a great idea!!!!!

,but we're probably a decade away from talking the club officers and directors into that. Members that don't participate here on Classiccar.com think that most HET members are not online, therefore putting the WTN classifieds in an electronic form will alienate the non-technological members.

[Pacemaker500]

HEY GUYS Lets not hear any more mention of that "insider deals" crap, that's a slam againsnt another HET volunteer, whether you actually accuse him or not.

I am sorry. I will try to remember to insert the START SARCASIM or START JOKE makers next time.

I do find it difficult to believe club members are conspiring to keep parts form other club members.

[START HUMOR] I would only expect that from Edsel owners. [END HUMOR]

[Mike (WA)]

Hudsonkid...

Sure, other people probably know that certain items are for sale before publication. A car might have been advertised locally, for example. And some people will tell others in the club before going to the bother of listing it in the WTN.

Also, "insider" deals possibly might occur before an issue is printed or mailed...that is human nature.

None of that is not my point.

I am referring to the fact that the WTN arrives at different times depending upon unknown factors at the post office...some people get theirs much later than others. And going first class mail, as I do, is no guarantee that I will get mine sooner.

One reason people pay more for First Class mailing of the WTN is to get a better shot at the ads....That is why I pay for First Class, and I do not think I am the only one in the club to do that.

If the WTN is e-mailed, everyone gets it at the same time. Insider deals, if and when they occur, are already gone anyways; but the rest of the items for sale are available to everyone at the same time.

Junkcarfan- I just looked at your avatar- Howard, is that you? Mike (WA) from ytmag. If this seems cryptic to the rest of you, well, it's supposed to. :confused:

[37 Terraplane#2]

Atta boy pacemaker 500, my expereince has ALWAYS been 'get in line brother' with club members, FIRST COME /FIRST SERVED

[nhp1127]

Hudsonkid...

Sure, other people probably know that certain items are for sale before publication. A car might have been advertised locally, for example. And some people will tell others in the club before going to the bother of listing it in the WTN.

Also, "insider" deals possibly might occur before an issue is printed or mailed...that is human nature.

None of that is not my point.

I am referring to the fact that the WTN arrives at different times depending upon unknown factors at the post office...some people get theirs much later than others. And going first class mail, as I do, is no guarantee that I will get mine sooner.

One reason people pay more for First Class mailing of the WTN is to get a better shot at the ads....That is why I pay for First Class, and I do not think I am the only one in the club to do that.

If the WTN is e-mailed, everyone gets it at the same time. Insider deals, if and when they occur, are already gone anyways; but the rest of the items for sale are available to everyone at the same time.

I completely agree. Getting ads quickly is the main reason I pay extra. IMHO, A monthly copy of the WTN on PDF posted for club member access only is a no brainer.

[hudsonkid]

Guys, I want to make sure that you don't question the rustworthiness of any of these folks. That's not fair. period.

Now, what I am curious of, is how many of the HET club actually have an e-mail address.... I would be it is a good percentage.

My thoughts is that a PDF should be sent to the entire membership at one clip, of the WTN. There isn't a problem with people saying this group got theirs first, etc... but hey, this would really make for fun, the parts and cars a buying! WOW!

I would have to believe there are many members, like Geoff said, would like to have a hard copy of the WTN as well, and I got to agree. I save old magazines, etc... and there is something about going back later on, to read stuff, at your leisure.

[SRCraftsman2]

I am sorry. I will try to remember to insert the START SARCASIM or START JOKE makers next time.

I do find it difficult to believe club members are conspiring to keep parts form other club members.

[START HUMOR] I would only expect that from Edsel owners. [END HUMOR]

Pacemaker did you get the P/M I sent you on your wiring project?

[Sarah Young]

[QUOTE=hudsonkid;67307]
Now, what I am curious of, is how many of the HET club actually have an e-mail address.... I would bet it is a good percentage.

My thoughts is that a PDF should be sent to the entire membership at one clip, of the WTN. There isn't a problem with people saying this group got theirs first, etc... but hey, this would really make for fun, the parts and cars a buying! WOW!QUOTE]

You're thinking too hard. This goes back to the WTN and the national site complimenting each other. The magazine and the features available in it should go hand in hand with the website. Whenever the national site figures out the online store, they'll figure out classifieds. There should be a secure login feature on the website, where you can log on to view and purchase club items. This same secure feature can be used to login to the WTN classifieds (with color pictures online?), which "goes live" with current classified replacement around the mailing of the current WTN. An e-mail could be sent to participating members who've signed up for reminder notices and this e-mail could also contain featured club store items to promote business. It's fair to all and lucrative to both the people who've placed ads as well as the club. Reel 'em in.

[ESSX28-1]

Well, one of the ONLY concessions we "foreign (alien, infidel, outsider) members get is the ability to pay by Credit Card for our membership renewal. Otherwise, it's all negative territory - $66 for Air mail postage of the W.T.N. which still takes 3 weeks to arrive, no voting rights, or opportunity to take part in club affairs unless at horrendous personal cost. Converting the "Membership" dues to our local currency brings it to N.Z.$100, which for 6 magazines per year equals around $17 per issue. Quite an expensive magazine. So thank you to the Club officials for at least one small mercy.
Geoff.

Being the cheapskate that I am, I didn't spring for the airmail option & opted for the regular delivery. So far I've got my copy in three weeks or less!:):)

[ClayS]

This is a perfect title for this thread. I'd like to address this question in a way that is more expansive than some of the other posts I've seen here. I encountered a major US vs. THEM attitude the first time I joined the HET club back in '92 that was very off-putting to me as a new member.

I had just purchased my '54 Hornet. I decided to rebuild the engine and my machinist determined by magnafluxing that the block was cracked and should be replaced. I began chasing ads in the White Triangle News.

Boy, was that ever an experience. I'd call the advertisers, all of them proving to be older individuals, and some would never answer the phone. Some who had answering machines would never return calls. I quickly became aware that some of these old guys were extremely frugal and did not want to pay long distance charges to return calls they'd missed. So I'd have to call repeatedly and get their answering machine (at my repeated expense) until I happened to catch them at home or when they wanted to answer the phone. Kind of a silly nickel and dime game to play, like maybe a habit learned growing up during THE DEPRESSION or something. Small problem, to be sure, but an annoying one when somebody is supposedly trying to conduct business.

Then, if and when I'd get them on the phone, these old guys would often start playing games about what they had for sale. They'd say in the ad "good engine, runs good, no problems" then when I'd ask specific questions about compression, miles, can I hear it running over the phone, etc... they'd get all evasive and squirrelly about it. They'd start hemming and hawing and saying things like, "well, I bought it from another guy for a project I was going to do and never did so I'm selling it, but that other guy said it was a good engine, runs fine, and has no problems but I don't know for sure. Just what he said is all I have to go on." Or some such waffling answer. I was repeatedly like, WTF!?

One WTN ad stands out specifically in my mind. It was for a 308 engine block and said right there in black and white, 'no damage'. So I do the phone chase thing for several days and finally get Rip Van Winkle way back east in PA on the phone.
Q: "Does 'No Damage" mean no cracks?"
A: "Yes, no cracks, that's why this block is selling for $500."
Q: "The block has been magnafluxed and determined to have no cracks?"
A: "Right, I looked it over and I can't see any cracks."
Q: "Has the block been magnafluxed by a machinist?"
A: "Huh?"
Q: Has the block been magnafluxed for cracks?
A: "Uh, well, ummmm, you mean magnafluxed? Uh, well, um, no... I guess... I mean, that's not really necessary because lots of cracks you just see."
Q: "You guarantee it not to have any cracks if it's magnafluxed?"
A: "Yeah, um, well, I'm really just guaranteeing that I can't see any cracks."
Q: "Since $500 is a lot of money for a block, would you be willing to have a professional machinist in your town magnaflux it at MY EXPENSE prior to the sale to ensure it has no cracks?"
A: "uh, sure it could be, if you wanted to, uh... guess, uhhhh, not. It doesn't have any cracks I can see and you can either buy it like that or not."

Now, I'll allow that everybody has the right to do business the way they see fit. And if I don't like it, I don't buy from them. I'll grant the old guys that. But do YOU see anything just the least bit shady about this sort of way of doing business? Anything just a bit unprofessional? Maybe just a bit "old buddy network"? Like, I've got a POS engine block I damn sure wouldn't want to use and I won't fob off on buddies in my old time HET clique, but, hey, I'll run an ad that just about verges on lies and if some ignorant pigeon is stupid enough to hand me $500 and he gets screwed, well, tough stuff for him and goody for me."

Anyway, all the dodgy acting sellers got me suspicious of what was going on. I got wised up by a nice older HET guy, a machinist in KC, I talked to about 308 engine blocks. He told me never to buy a 308 block sight unseen for more than $25 dollars or so unless it had been magnafluxed and for sure had no cracks, because most 308 blocks had cracks and experienced sellers know it. Unscrupulous sellers try to sell them as complete engines or as uninspected blocks because if they DO magnaflux them the cracks will usually be observable and then they have to admit the engine block they want hundreds of dollars for is just so much by-the-weight scrap. Which in my mind it's unethical to deliberately avoid knowing an easily knowable answer just because the probable answer is unfavorable to you. But this sort of game playing seems to be quite common among some sellers of H-E-T items. Sad, very sad, and bad for the marque to have unscrupulous individuals and advertisers in HET (don't even get me started on the "very nice, all there" fender skirts I bought through WTN that turned out to be unusable rusted junk with the stainless trim and fender clips REMOVED!!!)

So, US vs. THEM? Yeah, I'd say there's a bunch of that and it leaves a very bad taste in the mouths of folks new to HET. I quit after one year because of it and likely will never join the club again. I don't mean to tar all the HETers with these comments, and I know, like, and respect quite a few of the older members. But the organization has dodgy characters who repeatedly engage in shady business through the HET club.

Sorry if anybody is offended. I've named no names nor will I. I'm just relating my US vs. THEM experience with the HET Club.

[Harry Hill]

Clay;

I don't think it's just HET, at least in my experience any group that has specialty items will have is fringe group of sellers trying to take advantage of who ever falls into their trap. The guys you talk about will do the same thing to fellow members of HET if they get the chance. If you think this is fun though try selling horses or buying horses. Anyway, don't judge the whole group by your bad experiences in WTN. For the most part, at least the folks I"ve met, are more than willing to help and honest to deal with. With some you need to make sure everything you expect is spelled out but with others you don't have to question what is going to be done because it they will go way beyond what you are expecting.

Harry

[ClayS]

Clay;

I don't think it's just HET, at least in my experience any group that has specialty items will have is fringe group of sellers trying to take advantage of who ever falls into their trap. The guys you talk about will do the same thing to fellow members of HET if they get the chance. If you think this is fun though try selling horses or buying horses. Anyway, don't judge the whole group by your bad experiences in WTN. For the most part, at least the folks I"ve met, are more than willing to help and honest to deal with. With some you need to make sure everything you expect is spelled out but with others you don't have to question what is going to be done because it they will go way beyond what you are expecting.

Harry

Thanks, Harry. I know you're right about it being a widespread problem. And there certainly is that hoary label "old horse trader" that can be applied to some folks just about everywhere. For what it's worth, some of the other marques' clubs are even more notorious for shady dealings than the HET club. Part of the problem is the increasing scarcity of parts for orphan marques, and the opportunities that exist for maximum extraction of cash from unsuspecting buyers. I really don't hold a grudge against the HET club generally, just a few of the more prominent names of the HET club as of 16 years ago (yes, prominent in HET!). The worst ones of that era are probably "no longer with us", so maybe the problem has corrected itself by now.

[Park W]

All,
I've not spent much time on this "sub-forum" until the past couple of days. I guess it developed into something beyond what I assumed when it first was established. Anyway, I find a good bit of useful opinion data here. Apologies for not dropping in regularly long before now. Some comments on what I've seen (IMHO, of course):
- Regarding some proposed or wished-for upgrades in club services ... "I guess the HET club is so cash strapped this can't happen?" I wouldn't say the club is cash strapped, but I'll guarantee you the officers and BOD take seriously their stewardship over our members' money. It's intentional that dues and other income don't greatly exceed expenses. That keeps the cost of membership as low as possible. There are some good things the "management" wants to do, some of which have been suggested here. But we'll have to do these things as time, finances, and capabilities of the volunteer help permit.
- Assuming that club leadership knows what's being expressed on this forum: see my opening comment. The President and some of the BOD still work full time, and really don't have a lot of time to devote to these forums. If good ideas surface, you club members can pass them along to your Directors. I think they'll give them fair consideration and forward the useful stuff to the President. And BTW, our President has put on the agenda for this year several of the improvements you've discussed here.
- "Complaint Review Board": You members already have one of sorts ... your Directors. While there aren't by-laws on the subject, in some cases one or more of your Region's Directors can work informally with the parties and come to a resolution. No guarantees, but you may want to give it a try (Blaiser, I know you did try it and it didn't help. Sorry). As for the option to eject someone from the club, the criteria are undefined, which may be troubling to some, but I think it's a case of "we'll know it when we see it." But not "routine" buyer-seller disputes, for reasons eloquently stated in this thread and elsewhere.
- Finally: Clay, the encounter you had on the engine block sounds like a couple of old-timers I could think of ... honest but not too technically savvy, and not wanting to expend too much effort in selling something. Of course the guy could have been a well-informed jerk, too! LOL.

[Ted W]

TNow, I'll allow that everybody has the right to do business the way they see fit. And if I don't like it, I don't buy from them. I'll grant the old guys that. But do YOU see anything just the least bit shady about this sort of way of doing business? Anything just a bit unprofessional? Maybe just a bit "old buddy network"? Like, I've got a POS engine block I damn sure wouldn't want to use and I won't fob off on buddies in my old time HET clique, but, hey, I'll run an ad that just about verges on lies and if some ignorant pigeon is stupid enough to hand me $500 and he gets screwed, well, tough stuff for him and goody for me."

I could see that point if everyone I ever dealt with was trying to get one over on me as a customer. But, that is seldom the case.

One viewpoint might be the guy wanted to get shed of the block and was not looking to invest time or any more money into have the block checked out. He may have felt if you wanted it, you would buy as is. Apparently he was not ashamed of the block enough to offer you a lower price, which would raise a red flag for me.

The main point here is that, you did the right thing in calling and learning if you would happy with such a sale. You feel most people would not be happy, thus the guy is a "shady" seller. Its hard to know what the seller is thinking or not thinking.

In this case, a few calls asking the same questions from other buyers, all resulting in a non-sale would either lower the price, or get the block checked out. Or someone might just buy "as is" for his price.

I never like to tell someone they are too high priced. Instead, I say that I don't have the money for the deal being offered. There is always someone around with more money and open to higher risks.

[Ted W]

Sorry about having the last word on this thread. It has grown into something beyond the starting post. Please feel free to start a new tread on "I got screwed" or better yet, I got the best deal from "so'n so".:D